How important is the preamplifier?

[chicks]

Oh, why do I bother?! The self-professed "experts" will simply never accept anything factual. They "know" everything there is to know. Sigh. I'm out.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Important for MM/MC phono and tape loop. Otherwise, the preamp lengthens the signal path and can dull the sound. This, assuming your sources are variable and your amp has gain control. A simple RCA switch box is helpful. If amp and or speakers need compensation, I usually ditch them and get something else. I realize this is not always an option for the non-collector.

 

[chicks]

My points are all found in engineering and data books. So now the engineering and data books are lying???

Cheers
Pos

One final response. It's the ignorant blowhards who drive the true experts, like Ken Kantor, from sites like this one, to everyone's loss.

His forthright assessment of your electronics "knowledge" should have shut you up long ago, but you keep right on posting your utter, uneducated nonsense.

 

[Mark B]

I personally consider an active preamp a necessary part of my system in order to switch multiple sources, as a volume control, and to help everything play well together. In addition to those functions the preamp should not degrade the audio signal. In my experience the better the preamp the better the system sounds.

 

[4-2-7]

One final response. It's the ignorant blowhards who drive the true experts, like Ken Kantor, from sites like this one, to everyone's loss.

His forthright assessment of your electronics "knowledge" should have shut you up long ago, but you keep right on posting your utter, uneducated nonsense.

Good point I haven't seen Ken around for quite a while.

 

[4-2-7]

My points are all found in engineering and data books. Are you claiming the engineering and data books are lying??? I can agree that there are a lot of poorly designed and distorted components out there. Hopefully they will be weeded out.

Cheers
Pos

Maybe the poorly designed and destorted components were comprised by the knowledge found in engeneering and data books.

 

[4-2-7]

Really. Well you were present and aware when I corrected him as to global negative feedback creating higher order harmonics. Been known since 1952 or before, 63+ years, according to the RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook (written by 26 engineers etc), and Nelson Pass white paper with actual measurements.

You were also present and fully aware that he uses the simple definition of capacitance and inductance linearity as the signal level is altered, at a given frequency (like a volume control is turned up and down). This is true. Yet I clearly stated, more than once, that I was referring to non-linear vs frequency, which is true.

The public is entitled to know all the science. Moderators, I hope you clean up this thread of the trash and unwarranted personal attacks.

Cheers
Pos

No scientist will ever say anything is concrete in science....Right? Well unless their science is political.

 

[4-2-7]

I am not sure what you mean 427.
I do not know how many times I have seen claims using just a portion of the science that will push their product, rather than present all the science on the subject. It has been taught in the classroom but not in some strings and posts. It is amazing.

Cheers
Pos

My point is to point out that nothing is writen in granite, we have all been taught things in school that don't hold water today and have been disproven.

You seem to trust all writen word, well at least thats what Im seeing on this end. At my age I have learned not everything we read is true.

That's all I'm pointing out.

 

[4-2-7]

Ah, how does being 6db down at 20hz (and a few tenths down in the midrange) the fault of the engineering or data books? How does using a common power supply for all the stages the fault of the data and/or engineering books? How is DA and ESR being taught in classes a flaw of the engineering and data books. How about wire/foils not being zero resistance the fault of engineering and data books.

When one checks the designs of poor sounding equipment, it is mostly problems of basic, first semester electronics not being applied. Another little secret is that many if not most designs are simply copies of someone else's work, the designer has no expertise, but is a great marketer.

Another little secret. Marketing beats engineering every time. And yes there are unique ways to design that almost all avoid.

Cheers
Pos

So am I to understand that your not a good electronics designer or marketer?

What does all your post in this tread have to do with the OP question?

 

[tubed]

I run a system where I don't need a preamplifier as the amplifier and source has left/right gain controls.
It sounds very good however the systems with preamplifiers sound very nice as well.

 

[4-2-7]

Hint: I have been in electronics and audio for some 58 years, have an electronics engineering degree. I have helped professors and college students in the past. I would reply designing over marketing.

But I am willing to learn if you will explicitly explain, in depth, my previous points.
My posts are replies to those who claim that a two dollar analog chip preamplifier is perfect, or a square wave proves a simpleton preamplifier is perfect, hence no need for listening tests nor an external preamplifier.

Cheers
Pos

Well start your teaching thread and maybe others will participate in it. This thread is not yours to deviate as you have done.

 

[E-Stat]

One final response. It's the ignorant blowhards who drive the true experts, like Ken Kantor, from sites like this one, to everyone's loss.

I'm sure Ken is a nice guy, but some folks prefer their * true experts* to have a better understanding of the performance envelope that is available today. One just shakes his head in amazement when Ken makes comments like these:

"The fact of the matter is that even midfi amps, preamps, optical players and wires are essentially sonically transparent. So all there is left to do with them, other than adding euphonic distortions, is to put them into fancier, more robust packages, and then make unfounded claims about their sonic superiority."

Source: Post from " Kind of thing that give the 'high-end' a bad name" thread

Midfi amps and preamps are "essentially sonically transparent"? Are you kidding me?

" It used to be very relaxing when we thought of amps as essentially transparent."

Source: Post from "All Amplifiers Sound the Same" thread

And yet another from the same thread:

"Designing a transparent preamp is trivial. I do it all the time. And with cheap op-amps, too."

While he finds mediocrity "relaxing", many other engineers continued to seek true transparency, aka no sonic signature.

"I have found many amps that do an effectively perfect job amplifying a signal above their noise floor and below their clipping limit. In my listening rooms I have used a Dynaco 410, a Crown Microtech, an Aragon 4004, a Krell KST-100 and various pro sound amps, essentially interchangeably. "

Source: Another post from "All Amplifiers Sound the Same" thread

A Dynaco 410 does an "effectively perfect job"? I guess everything is relative. It's a shame his point of reference or ability to hear differences is not the same as others.

His current gig with the Lunchbox guitar amp is appropriate to his concept of transparency.

 

[JP]

In case everyone forgot:

"I'm basically interested to ask if any slight loss of warmth is more than made up for by a much better preamp? If you've made the move from an integrated amp to separates, or perhaps had a big upgrade on the preamp side, i'd be interested to know how much difference it made in your system?"

 

[E-Stat]

In case everyone forgot...

Did you? The rest of us are talking about what the OP observed here:

"They still have that nice VA Kl.A warm/organic sound, but with a tilt toward greater power and resolution."

You know, that greater resolution thing.

 

[chicks]

Show me a properly conducted ABX test where a "high end" amp was detectable, with 90% or better certainty, vs "mid Fi" (silly term) amps. Can't? Until then, your post is meaningless.

 

[E-Stat]

Show me a properly conducted ABX test where a "high end" amp was detectable, with 90% or better certainty, vs "mid Fi" (silly term) amps. Can't? Until then, your post is meaningless.

Show me an ABX test where the control for the test itself has been established. You know, the kind of controls always used in medical trials. Beginning with the assumption that the test itself doesn't affect the results is not real science. It's a parlor game.

Can't? Then your post is meaningless.

 

[4-2-7]

Hi folks, I own a very nice integrated amp & am planning on moving up to separates within the VA line. However the trade off is the amps i'm considering are not quite as warm/romantic as my SIA-025. They still have that nice VA Kl.A warm/organic sound, but with a tilt toward greater power and resolution. Obviously you have to consider the overall synergy and balance of your system. For example, my S5's are on the warm side..so are my Jorma Prime xlr's & pc's, whilst the Furutech GTX-D(g) wpo also adds just a touch of warmth being the gold version. So there should be enough warmth. Conversely if I owned a pair of Q3's, I would be inclined to go for a warmer sounding amp as the Q3's are more neutral.

I was once told if the power amp is the engine of your system, the preamp is the heart. If so, that would imply it can have a big influence on the overall sound. I'm basically interested to ask if any slight loss of warmth is more than made up for by a much better preamp? If you've made the move from an integrated amp to separates, or perhaps had a big upgrade on the preamp side, i'd be interested to know how much difference it made in your system?

Cheers,
Bodhi.

The OP's question is how important is the preamplifier.

Is it ok to trash high quality external preamplifiers while pushing $2 compromising gain stages found in dacs, servers, computers? Why not present pertinent information so the public can make informed, intelligent decisions based on all considerations. The OP is asking if an external preamplifier is justified. I say yes, but an excellent quality one.

You were politely asked to explain, in depth, why my points are either right or wrong, thus participating. I stated I am willing to learn.
I apologize for requesting you to explain my points in depth and making you feel uncomfortable. The engineering books are college textbooks; I should have made myself clearer.
Yes, I just remembered, there is at least one "science" book, by EW, that I would not trust in any sense of the word, and not a textbook. Probably more as well. I apologize for not remembering them earlier.

I have witnessed $100 NAD 521 cd player (that is only 20 bit) with the same dynamics, more open, transparent, greater spatial presentation than expensive, even $4000 server. Convenience always seems to come at a cost.

I do not believe orders have been sent that we all have to compromise, yet again, musical quality for convenience and .... The outboard preamplifier is very important. Are you going to deny us that right?

Cheers
Pos

The above is what the OP is asking, that has nothing to do with your desire to have a debate with others in this thread.

 

[4-2-7]

Hi folks, I own a very nice integrated amp & am planning on moving up to separates within the VA line. However the trade off is the amps i'm considering are not quite as warm/romantic as my SIA-025. They still have that nice VA Kl.A warm/organic sound, but with a tilt toward greater power and resolution. Obviously you have to consider the overall synergy and balance of your system. For example, my S5's are on the warm side..so are my Jorma Prime xlr's & pc's, whilst the Furutech GTX-D(g) wpo also adds just a touch of warmth being the gold version. So there should be enough warmth. Conversely if I owned a pair of Q3's, I would be inclined to go for a warmer sounding amp as the Q3's are more neutral.

I was once told if the power amp is the engine of your system, the preamp is the heart. If so, that would imply it can have a big influence on the overall sound. I'm basically interested to ask if any slight loss of warmth is more than made up for by a much better preamp? If you've made the move from an integrated amp to separates, or perhaps had a big upgrade on the preamp side, i'd be interested to know how much difference it made in your system?

Cheers,
Bodhi.

The OP

In case everyone forgot:

"I'm basically interested to ask if any slight loss of warmth is more than made up for by a much better preamp? If you've made the move from an integrated amp to separates, or perhaps had a big upgrade on the preamp side, i'd be interested to know how much difference it made in your system?"

A direct quote

Did you? The rest of us are talking about what the OP observed here:

"They still have that nice VA Kl.A warm/organic sound, but with a tilt toward greater power and resolution."

You know, that greater resolution thing.

No the rest......most of this tread went on a tangent disregarding the OP ?

 

[Pio1980]

Show me an ABX test where the control for the test itself has been established. You know, the kind of controls always used in medical trials. Beginning with the assumption that the test itself doesn't affect the results is not real science. It's a parlor game.

Can't? Then your post is meaningless.

The BAS proved to themselves in the 1970s that all preamps sounded the same thru a contemporary equalizer, the use of which discredited the testing to many other audiophiles including myself.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[E-Stat]

The BAS proved to themselves in the 1970s ...

Which reminds me of folks who still reference the Russel links about various types of zip cord tested thirty years ago and proclaim those results to stand unchanged today.

Despite the fact that lower EDC cable now available didn't exist then.