How Loud in db is LOUD?

[BOUXY]

so when you guys judge how much power is feeding the speakers
you usually us a db meter to judge that?
i.e my little atoms should not really go over 90 db
and how do you know how much db for a particular speaker??
please dont think i am being a smart butt

I suppose you can do that but usually the Wattage power is indicated on the back of said speakers and I go by that but to be able to do that I used a set of Wattage Power Meters such as Radio Shacks APM-200/300/500 which told me how much power my Amp/Receiver was pushing so I could adjust my Volume to my Speakers Capabilities.
I was using a Marantz 2385 to power Wharfedale W90's and they could only handle 20-40 Watts so with the external Power Meters I knew not to go overboard on my Wattage usage:thmbsp:

 

[tomlinmgt]

I believe the threshold of pain and serious permanent damage starts well before 130db.....and is that dbA or dbC?


dbA or dbC? Sounds reasonable for in a room, when I was mixing in smaller venues and clubs with bands who were loud in stage sometimes we were up around 108dbA, even at that volume I always found it unpleasant....However, stage volume is another story, some bands can reach phenomenal levels onstage....

When I am mixing I like to work around 95-98dbA, maybe the occasional peaks slightly over 100dbA....but thats it.....any more and it is horrible, it becomes difficult to mix properly....

Those figures I gave were peaks.

 

[kevzep]

Those figures I gave were peaks.

I believe we are on the same page........:thmbsp:

Its just not necessary to be so loud......We were just talking about this in the office in regards to a show we worked on last night which was completely beyond any enjoyable level.....

 

[oblomov]

Its just not necessary to be so loud......We were just talking about this in the office in regards to a show we worked on last night which was completely beyond any enjoyable level.....

I have to agree. Some shows are just insane loud...more than the equipment on hand can handle. No fun for anyone really.

Just as I often judge home sound systems on how they sound at a low or moderate level...(this can be quite telling)...It often seems that a live band running insane levels at perhaps 80% distortion is covering up for a ton of musical ineptitude.

 

[kevzep]

Many recording studio engineers will work at around 85db (A-weighted) for creating a final mix. This is done because the human ear theoretically has the flattest frequency response around that point. (Fletcher-Munson, etc)

This is correct, and my most enjoyed listening level too........

 

[Chris Brown]

There is just something special about playing a system loud though. When you are listening to hard rock and every drum beat feels like someone just hit you in the chest with a baseball bat. When you are listening to some dubstep and there is so much bass that your clothes feel like they are floating on top of your body. It's more fun than drugs. :thmbsp:

 

[sony6060]

I believe by the chart reference I listen to 70-75dB or above average voice level. When I want to turn it up perhaps 80-85dB.

 

[century tek]

Try the AC/DC Hells Bells concert back in the 80's. I'm not even going to guess how many decibels they were pushing. All I know is my ears were ringing for 3 days. I am 50 now and don't even like to listen to anything that might even come remotely close, but my system will annoy the neighbors. :thmbsp:

 

[Chip Chester]

Temporary threshold shift can cause average house sound levels to creep out of control. It can also cause my perception of loudness to change over the evening, too. I find that, when it gets just too dang loud, it sounds quite distorted and ragged to me -- until I partially plug my ears, or use some hearing protection. Then, it gets much cleaner sounding when it's attenuated. I've checked with an "app", and things were indeed louder. It's pretty easy these days to get really loud, clean sound. But I wonder if my perceptions mirror others', or if it's "just me."

Chip

 

[tomlinmgt]

I believe we are on the same page........:thmbsp:

Its just not necessary to be so loud......We were just talking about this in the office in regards to a show we worked on last night which was completely beyond any enjoyable level.....

On more occasions than I care to remember I've had to ask myself WTF is the sound man thinking? The average person's yardstick for sound quality at a live show is if they can hear/understand the vocalist. After that they just want a balance of instrument levels that sounds like what they hear on the radio at a level that makes them want to cut loose a little bit ('cause they think they're "rockin' out"). Why is it so many sound guys don't seem to know this, Kev? You get a good volume for the vocals based on the vocalist's delivery and style and you build the mix around that. When a mix is super hot you can rarely hear or understand the vocals and that screws the pooch. People are much more interested in understanding what the band is playing and feeling a good LF tickle in the gut and bump in the ass than having their faces peeled off their skull and ringing ears for the next eighteen hours.

And as a musician one of the last things I ever have a desire to do is crank my system to the levels I'm exposed to when I'm actually playing. Two totally different worlds. Totally.

 

[rnorton]

As a guide, most outdoor rock concerts are at 100ft (or at the mix position) between 103-107dbA.

Which is why very few board ops have any hearing left above 3000 Hz after a few years. They compensate by boosting the heck out of the high end EQ to the great discomfort of everyone who isn't already deaf. Not hard to tell at a concert whether the op has rock'n'roll deafness. Been there, done that, but I used 30 dB of high quality, linear earplug protection.

I once did sound for Iron Butterfly in a small bar where the contract required 120 dB at 1 meter. Took almost 5000 watts to do it. The bar was about 3000 sq. ft.

The bar burned down a few days later and we always figured that the sound level started a fire somewhere that smoldered for a day or two and then flared up.

 

[ofajen]

Many recording studio engineers will work at around 85db (A-weighted) for creating a final mix. This is done because the human ear theoretically has the flattest frequency response around that point. (Fletcher-Munson, etc)

Yes, and that seems loud for me. I know movie sound guys often work with an 85 dB reference, but I prefer to reference to 80 dBA, both speakers driven, and that is for setting 0 dB level on monitor gain. For most mixes, the monitor gain would be 6-9 dB lower.

In addition, I typically also do mix checking with the gain down 40 dB or so. That helps make sure the musical values still come through at low levels where we don't hear the low and high end as well.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[Chip Chester]

Mix checking at low volume was always an important step for me, as well... as if it was playing on a cheap table radio in a normal office environment.

Chip

 

[kevzep]

On more occasions than I care to remember I've had to ask myself WTF is the sound man thinking? The average person's yardstick for sound quality at a live show is if they can hear/understand the vocalist. After that they just want a balance of instrument levels that sounds like what they hear on the radio at a level that makes them want to cut loose a little bit ('cause they think they're "rockin' out"). Why is it so many sound guys don't seem to know this, Kev? You get a good volume for the vocals based on the vocalist's delivery and style and you build the mix around that. When a mix is super hot you can rarely hear or understand the vocals and that screws the pooch. People are much more interested in understanding what the band is playing and feeling a good LF tickle in the gut and bump in the ass than having their faces peeled off their skull and ringing ears for the next eighteen hours.

And as a musician one of the last things I ever have a desire to do is crank my system to the levels I'm exposed to when I'm actually playing. Two totally different worlds. Totally.

I entirely agree with you, and I find myself asking the question all too often.....
Why? I thought people went along to enjoy the show......I personally cannot enjoy something that loud.....
I have however worked with some excellent engineers over the years, and these guys are most often older guys who have been doing it for many years, for example when we supplied the system for Roger Waters, hi engineer is a very well known guy, and has mixed many big acts, and always gets a stellar sound.....and its a pleasure working with people like that....
I mixed Bobby Womack recently, it was in a 3000 seat theatre, a nice room actually.
My mix was averaging about 94dbA, and this is a big band with horn section, three Backing vocalists, percussion, drums etc etc.....I had it sitting just nicely...
Its good level to rise above the crowd cheering etc etc, and to have a bit of impact.....
At the end of the show, I had a lot of people thanking me for the excellent sound, most commonly people were saying "I could hear everything" and "I didn't even have to put toilet paper in my ears", and "I could hear what he was singing".......crazy 'eh?
Well, in my book not really, its how I like to operate.....Job done.

Which is why very few board ops have any hearing left above 3000 Hz after a few years. They compensate by boosting the heck out of the high end EQ to the great discomfort of everyone who isn't already deaf. Not hard to tell at a concert whether the op has rock'n'roll deafness. Been there, done that, but I used 30 dB of high quality, linear earplug protection.

I once did sound for Iron Butterfly in a small bar where the contract required 120 dB at 1 meter. Took almost 5000 watts to do it. The bar was about 3000 sq. ft.

I work with engineers like this all the time, I can tell the moment I meet them whether I will be pulling my gun muffs out of my case!!
Not all engineers are deaf, or have compromised hearing though, but yes, those that do are easy to spot....The top end of the PA in limit....people with their fingers in ears, people coming up to the mix position to complain....etc etc....

If I was working and operating for a band which wanted to be that loud and had it in their contract, I would be headed for the door, that is completely ridiculous.....But having said that I have had to supply systems which have to perform at such levels, and those days are not the days I personally get a lot of job satisfaction....

Yes, and that seems loud for me. I know movie sound guys often work with an 85 dB reference, but I prefer to reference to 80 dBA, both speakers driven, and that is for setting 0 dB level on monitor gain. For most mixes, the monitor gain would be 6-9 dB lower.

In addition, I typically also do mix checking with the gain down 40 dB or so. That helps make sure the musical values still come through at low levels where we don't hear the low and high end as well.

Cheers,

Otto

I like listening in the low to mid 80dbA range, although as I type this, I am listening to an album at 58dbA, and its a good "slightly over background noise" level......any louder and it would be annoying as I concentrate on typing and reading......

 

[ofajen]

I like listening in the low to mid 80dbA range, although as I type this, I am listening to an album at 58dbA, and its a good "slightly over background noise" level......any louder and it would be annoying as I concentrate on typing and reading......

Agreed. The 80 dB level would be for louder listening while working on music or listening to someone else's music when I want it "loud enough to sound good." Right now I'm in the office listening to a Solar Fields tune running low 60s with peaks in low 70s and that's within about 5 dB of the loudest gain setting I ever run on this system.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[Hurst/Olds]

I must say, 100 db is incredibly loud. I know that instant hearing loss is exactly 135 db. My receiver gets up to 95 db and even I think that's loud. But overall, as much as I love my music loud, I would never dare try to crank a pair of speakers past 100 db. That sounds a little to dangerous for me.

 

[Lapslah]

As a cautionary tale, I resemble many of the comments posted above. I learned to mix at 90dB and liked to listen to my music loud. I played in marching bands (which, believe it or not, can rival major rock bands when it comes to SPL on the field - our drum line was once measured at 135 dBA), big bands, and fronted rock bands. I no longer do live sound because I know my hearing is compromised. Not only do I need to boost the highs to make it sound good to me (the reason my home system has adjustable ribbon tweeters), but my tinnitus can sometimes prevent me from hearing feedback.

If you enjoy this hobby, protect your hearing. Don't crank it up too loud when listening for enjoyment, keep stage volume down when you're performing (the sound guy will thank you), and something that hasn't been mentioned yet - be extra careful when using headphones or earbuds, whether for leisure or IEMs. They make it WAY too easy to push too much volume and not even know it.

 

[JBL GUY]

Here's an example: OSHA allows 8 hours of exposure to 90 dBA but only 2 hours of exposure to 100 dBA sound levels. NIOSH would recommend limiting the 8 hour exposure to less than 85 dBA. At 100 dBA, NIOSH recommends less than 15 minutes of exposure per day.

Less time than it takes to play one side of a long play record and if one plays both sides it is venturing into dangerous territory.

However keep in mind, any recommendations on safe listening levels versus time are based on the averaged results of testing and research.

The safe levels and durations may vary per individual.

BTW, relative loudness per individual is somewhat subjective and although it varies with the individual, the human ear has an automatic mechanism to limit the energy transferred through the inner ear to the cochlea.

The threshold of the onset of the will vary somewhat in intensity and duration per individual. It has a somewhat slow onset, so it may not provide some protection to short duration high intensity sounds.

If you have become accustomed to very loud music, it may be too late for your ears, all though there always is plenty of anecdotal information that flies in the face of the research. So good for those that fall outside of the established science, consider yourself lucky.

This should give you some indication of what I consider loud in context of our hobby.

 

[blackfly]

I would point out that dB is also a point of CLEAN SOUND. My system is so undistorted that I have no idea how loud it is until someone disturbs me. Not good. I most likely am doing damage but the sound is so nice. Point: the better the system, the more attention you will have to pay to volume. 100db is loud, yet, but not so loud on an undistorted system.

 

[Tapehead47]