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Hpm 100

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I decided to do some testing of the HPM-100 crossover. Not scientific by any means but still interesting.

I removed the woofer, midrange and tweeter of my HPM-100's from their cabinets to take response measurements at each drivers terminals. I used a pink noise cd, a speaker level to line level converter and TrueRTA software that is installed on my computer.

Midrange and Treble controls set at 0. I've attached an image of the response results.

The first image is the response of my sound card and the speaker to line converter.

The second image is the overlay of the individual results at the woofer, midrange and tweeter terminals. The drivers were left connected for my testing.

The third image is the response graph from the original literature.

You can clearly see that there is no hump in the spectrum as shown on the HPM-100 literature. There is however a dip of about 4 1/2 db where the woofer and midrange cross.

I also notice that the crossover points for the mid and tweeter are just about where the literature states at 3kHz and 4Khz respectively. My results show ~3500kHz and 4500kHz. But I'm not going to nit pick this as I'm not using laboratory grade equipment here. I also find it very interesting that the difference in response between the mid and tweeter is minimal until the midrange control is turned past 0 at which point the lower end of the midrange response will come up about 3db (not shown).

Am I correct in assuming that the hump in the response between 1500Hz and 10kHz shown in the speaker literature is actually caused by the drivers and not the design of the crossover?

That is eye opening. I've been "Cutting" the tweeter to reduce some of the ringing on certain tracks. Think a look at the midrange may be in order. Changing these two drivers was a big improvement, But I still tweaked with an EQ, But not near as much as the HPM 100 driver. Maybe in the second gen series they realized a change was needed. HPM900 drivers are much less "in your face".
 
One thing I don't understand is why Pioneer would make the mid and high response so similar. Looks to me that you could leave out the driver and have very similar sound characteristics. I was expecting the mid to roll off, not extend to the upper limits of the spectrum. I would think that with both the mid and tweeters operating in the same basic range that their outputs would add up to cause the hump you see in the literature graph. Am I mistaken here?

Thanks,
Paul

What I meant to say is that you could leave out the mid driver or tweeter and get a very similar response.

I've actually been running the midrange control at 7 o'clock (which is not too far from being completely off ) and speakers pointing straight out instead of toed in, for the past month or so, as well as set the tweeter control to -3, and I've found that they are much smoother sounding. :yes:

I normally don't use tone controls but to compensate for the higher end roll-off around 15kHz from pointing the speakers straight out I bumped up the treble control on my preamp a notch, which happens to have maximum effect about 15kHz or so, and that gives me the airiness that I like.

Paul
 
That is eye opening. I've been "Cutting" the tweeter to reduce some of the ringing on certain tracks. Think a look at the midrange may be in order. Changing these two drivers was a big improvement, But I still tweaked with an EQ, But not near as much as the HPM 100 driver. Maybe in the second gen series they realized a change was needed. HPM900 drivers are much less "in your face".

I would be interested in a driver change as well but for now the tweaks I've made are working for me. I'm real interested in what Ray and Zilch come up with in their testing.

Paul
 
I would be interested in a driver change as well but for now the tweaks I've made are working for me. I'm real interested in what Ray and Zilch come up with in their testing.

Paul

Me too. We'll be getting some info first hand here shortly. On a side note, Seems Amplifier selection plays a pretty big part in the sound of these speakers. Finally finding the Carver I wanted with it's warmer tube sound settled things down, The former Hafler xl600, Was just the other way. Thumping and bright, Not a good match for this system.
 
Well, I took a response measurement using a Radio Shack mini electret mic. Keep in mind that I took the measurement in my living room at about 6 feet away from the speaker. I have know idea what the room is doing to the measurement. Also, I have no idea what the Mic Input on my sound card has for response. My previous measurements were all done using the Line Input.

There is a hump around 50Hz which I've have heard people talk about and I believe my room is exaggerating it some. But the midrange area is fairly flat. I believe that is the smoother sound I've been hearing since tweaking the controls and changing the position of the speakers.

The first pic is at 1 octave and the 2nd pic is at 1/3rd octave. The 3rd pic is from the manual of the mic I used (who knows how accurate it really is). These measurements are more than likely bogus but hey it was fun doing it anyway.

Remember, I don't know the accuracy of the Mic Input of my sound card or how the room affects the response. Also Who knows how accurate the mic itself really is.
 

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The soundcard does drop off after 15kHz. Can you tell me what valuable info you get from my graphs, if any.

If so, can you describe the good and bad that you see from them. I'm really trying to get a better understanding of what you see here. For example, you say the drivers must have a lot of inductance. Can you tell me if this is a good thing or bad.

The drivers having high inductance comes from the difference between the plot with the drivers attached and the one with the resisitive loads. A driver's voice coil is an inductor and that accounts for the difference in the plots along with the difference in impedance and the pure resistance of the dummy load. It's not a good or bad thing, just a thing. Crossovers are generally designed with this in mind. A highly inductive driver will have a lower high end rolloff that one with less inductance. That's the nature of an inductor.

One thing I don't understand is why Pioneer would make the mid and high response so similar. Looks to me that you could leave out the driver and have very similar sound characteristics. I was expecting the mid to roll off, not extend to the upper limits of the spectrum. I would think that with both the mid and tweeters operating in the same basic range that their outputs would add up to cause the hump you see in the literature graph. Am I mistaken here?

This will probably be more clear when a plot of the driver output is avialable. If the mid has a very high inductance then it may rolloff naturally before the tweeter really gets going. My guess is that the system was designed around the woofer and tweeter and the mid was put in as a filler to cover a small range between the 2. That's just a guess though. You are correct about both drivers playing the same range resulting in a hump but we don't know for sure without looking at the acoustic output.

Ray
 
Great info! Zilch, A pair for further review, Will be coming your way the weekend of the 19th, If your free. I know it sounds crazy, But there gonna be used at a 80's themed wedding this weekend. I'm donating my HMP 100's there's a pair of Infinity ref monitors, And a pair of polk 3 way's. You may need to do a repair if they don't survive the Carver ZR1600's that I'm told will drive them. That should be some serious hair band rock'n I guess. Let me know if that date works for you. Later, Robert

Just want all interested the speakers survived everything that was thrown at them, They were played at EXTREMELY high volume for a few hours. All donated speakers survived a very rowdy reception/drunkfest, minus a pair of Cerwin Vega D-9's(Believed to be blown midranges..on both!!) The Infinity's held there own, The Polk Monitor 10's sounded a bit overdriven, But hung in there. Will listen to mine closely tomorrow, Then off to Zilchlab, The end of the week.:yes:
 
Just want all interested the speakers survived everything that was thrown at them, They were played at EXTREMELY high volume for a few hours. All donated speakers survived a very rowdy reception/drunkfest, minus a pair of Cerwin Vega D-9's(Believed to be blown midranges..on both!!) The Infinity's held there own, The Polk Monitor 10's sounded a bit overdriven, But hung in there. Will listen to mine closely tomorrow, Then off to Zilchlab, The end of the week.:yes:

For all those interested(And there's a few), We are in the process of nailing down some testing time at ZilchLab with my speakers. I wanted to send out a reminder that they are no longer "True" HPM 100's. The drivers were changed to Second gen drivers(HPM 700), Less the woofer, The supertweeter's are from Pioneer s-1010's. I did re-install the stock crossovers, And set the re-capped ones aside for testing fairness. These loudspeakers have been getting slammed pretty well lately, Test data sucks, To bright, Freq response screwed up. We'll see. Here are the speakers as they will be tested.
 

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These measurements describe NFS's HPM-100s, which he has modified as described above. While they are not definitive of stock units, they do illustrate known HPM-100 performance characteristics. Note that NFS's attenuators have been bypassed; he normally uses them EQ'd.

Here are the published FR curves as we know them to date, courtesy of AK member Tripqzon, for comparison:

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We kept the color coding constant across the measurements, i.e., Red is unit #1 full range in all plots, Black is unit #2 full range, Green is #1 at 30° off-axis, etc.. The mic is aimed midway between the three HF drivers.

1) RTA, 1/6 octave. The two units are nearly identical on axis full range, Red and Black. HF is up ~8 dB above 3 kHz where the midrange crosses in. There is a hole in the response just below that, down to 1 kHz, which I believe Ray observed in his listening evaluation. The supertweeter generates a peak at 18 kHz.

Additional measurements were taken on Unit #1. Green is 30° off axis, a typical listening alignment, where the high frequencies are somewhat attenuated, as is also shown in the published directional frequency response curves, above, though not so much. The supertweeter peak is gone. Violet is the HF alone, without the woofer running; more regarding that follows. Ignore the dips in low-frequency response below 500 Hz; those are room nodes. See 3) and 4), below, for the LF response, measured nearfield:

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2) MLS, valid only above 200 Hz, but quasi-anechoic, i.e., room reflections have been largely eliminated via time windowing, providing a higher-resolution view of the same measurements. Off-axis (Green,) the notch between 1 and 2 kHz is substantially deepened (-10 dB.) This may derive from woofer phase interference with an anomalous extension of mid driver response in this region (Violet.) The factory curves show similar between 2 and 3 kHz, perhaps from a different measurment axis. A high-Q anomaly appears between 8 and 10 kHz, also shown, to a lesser degree, in the factory 30° response curve. Here, again, the supertweeter peak is gone, suggesting that it is ineffective off-axis:

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3) SINusoidal, gated and delayed, also minimizes the effects of room reflections at higher frequencies, confirming the above findings. Additionally shown are 1/4" nearfield measurements of woofer and port responses, Blue and Cyan, respectively, reflecting elevated bass response in the region of 100 Hz. There is a substantial (~6 dB) peak at 900 Hz in all of the measurements warranting further determination.

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4) SINusoidal again, with the HF response, no woofer (Violet) and Unit #2 response, Black.

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We were unable to measure the response of the individual drivers, as the connections to each were soldered to the crossover leads. NFS is bringing me crossovers alone for voltage drive measurements next week....
 

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Well, I guess I will have to add my three cents!
I own three pairs, of the Hpm 100's I have one pair stacked. I also own three pairs of JBL L100's Since I got my first set of HPM's a year ago, I don't even have the JBL's connected.

I believe in my 60 year old Rock and Roll heart, the the HPM's need to be listened to in the way they were designed. Hooked to a 1970's Pioneer big watt amp, and a Pioneer Pre Amp, and all the rest of the mid 70's equipment, and playing vinyl or tape.. But key here to me is all pioneer. You are going to say I nuts, and watts are watts, but when Locanthi was designing the crossovers, voice coils and surrounds, he wasn't using a Sansui amp.

I am sitting here now listening to a killer FM rock station through a Spec 4 amp, a Spec 1 Pre Amp, and a TX 9800 tuner with the stacked HPM 100's
To my ears and the ears of my friends they can't tell the difference from the FM broadcast and a CD. When I play vinyl or reel to reel, it is all "Angels trumpets and devils trombones" I actually have had to ask the pizza guy to get out, as he was so amazed at the sound coming at him that he forgot he had a job to do.

I have loved this sound for near 40 years, I listen to my stereos all day long and never tire of the sound, and when I play a direct to disc Lp it becomes what great stereos and speakers are meant to do, make the music sound like it is LIVE!
The thing to keep in mind when judging the HPM 100's, is that they are near 40 years old, they have been beat to death by stupid rock heads and frat boys, they have blazed away in discos, and have been left to rot in garages and basements. My fist pair were in crap condition, the tweeters were frying bacon, the mids sounded like tin cans and the woofer sounded a bit like pounding on a inner tube with a bat.
they had a couple of crushed corners, and a case separation on one of them.

But, by simply cleaning everything, recapping the crossovers, and repairing the separation and a little caulk inside, and replacing the lost insulation, They are now actually the best sounding of the three pairs.

So maybe this is why so many people cling to these worthless speakers.

Donald Bowman
 
I will elucidate after dinner; wanted to get them posted before shutting down CLIO, in case....

Just wanted to thanks Zilchster for his time testing the speakers, And explaining what was going on in detail. Some things were learned, And some things guys already knew. For instance; The speakers are bright, There are 2 rolloffs actually in the upper ranges, The speakers can get down to 20htz(Barely). Testing with the speakers 30% off-axis showed gains in some areas, And is the way to go as I set them up when I got home. Also use of an EQ is essential.

On a different subject, I was shown a 98% totally flat response speaker. Zilch was putting together 2 way's with JBL horns, And a simple JBL 10" driver, In a somewhat smallish old AR cab I think it was. Run through an active crossover and bi-amped, The little speakers were astonishing in detail and imaging. The mike was set-up, And the graph was just about flat, It was amazing. BTW, Who does'nt think a tweaked speaker that is almost perfect sounds lifeless, Or hollow, You would be wrong.

So the speakers are'nt perfect, But can be usable, And enjoyed. Zilch, Thanks again, Will be back for more JBL mayhem ASAP!:yes:
 
On a different subject, I was shown a 98% totally flat response speaker. Zilch was putting together 2 way's with JBL horns, And a simple JBL 10" driver, In a somewhat smallish old AR cab I think it was.


KLH-6! Unless you guys we're cranking the AR2 project before I showed up. Wait no, I think those have 12''s. The modified KLH-6's are incredible. Dead solid, just about as flat as the come... I'm really looking forward to hearing these with a passive XO.
 
KLH-6! Unless you guys we're cranking the AR2 project before I showed up. Wait no, I think those have 12''s. The modified KLH-6's are incredible. Dead solid, just about as flat as the come... I'm really looking forward to hearing these with a passive XO.
And they were FREE!

[Well, the boxes, anyway.... ;) ]

Fleetwood Mac still playin' here tonight. Thanks again for leaving me the Rumours CD, NFS! :thmbsp:
 
Well, I guess I will have to add my three cents!
I own three pairs, of the Hpm 100's I have one pair stacked. I also own three pairs of JBL L100's Since I got my first set of HPM's a year ago, I don't even have the JBL's connected.

I believe in my 60 year old Rock and Roll heart, the the HPM's need to be listened to in the way they were designed. Hooked to a 1970's Pioneer big watt amp, and a Pioneer Pre Amp, and all the rest of the mid 70's equipment, and playing vinyl or tape.. But key here to me is all pioneer. You are going to say I nuts, and watts are watts, but when Locanthi was designing the crossovers, voice coils and surrounds, he wasn't using a Sansui amp.

I am sitting here now listening to a killer FM rock station through a Spec 4 amp, a Spec 1 Pre Amp, and a TX 9800 tuner with the stacked HPM 100's
To my ears and the ears of my friends they can't tell the difference from the FM broadcast and a CD. When I play vinyl or reel to reel, it is all "Angels trumpets and devils trombones" I actually have had to ask the pizza guy to get out, as he was so amazed at the sound coming at him that he forgot he had a job to do.

I have loved this sound for near 40 years, I listen to my stereos all day long and never tire of the sound, and when I play a direct to disc Lp it becomes what great stereos and speakers are meant to do, make the music sound like it is LIVE!
The thing to keep in mind when judging the HPM 100's, is that they are near 40 years old, they have been beat to death by stupid rock heads and frat boys, they have blazed away in discos, and have been left to rot in garages and basements. My fist pair were in crap condition, the tweeters were frying bacon, the mids sounded like tin cans and the woofer sounded a bit like pounding on a inner tube with a bat.
they had a couple of crushed corners, and a case separation on one of them.

But, by simply cleaning everything, recapping the crossovers, and repairing the separation and a little caulk inside, and replacing the lost insulation, They are now actually the best sounding of the three pairs.

So maybe this is why so many people cling to these worthless speakers.

Donald Bowman

Donald,
Post number 10 and I believe you've summed everything up perfectly!

I think the main problem here between the folks who like them, and the ones that don't, is that the ones that don't can't figure out "why" they are liked by the ones that do. Basically, the ones that don't like them, try to prove to the people that do like them, that they shouldn't. This same argument has gone on ever since AK has been in existance. My advice to the ones who don't like them, "live and let live" brothers, afterall, it IS all about personal tastes and musical experiences. If you don't like them fine, but really, don't try to tell the ones that do like them why they shouldn't, so far from what I've seen, it's been a futile effort. This one has been beaten to death and it's time to move on to "All Audio and No Attitude!"

Now maybe we can start a thread about why you think "your" particular speakers are so special, yes, all of them. :D





Retro
 
Donald,
Post number 10 and I believe you've summed everything up perfectly!

I think the main problem here between the folks who like them, and the ones that don't, is that the ones that don't can't figure out "why" they are liked by the ones that do. Basically, the ones that don't like them, try to prove to the people that do like them, that they shouldn't. This same argument has gone on ever since AK has been in existance. My advice to the ones who don't like them, "live and let live" brothers, afterall, it IS all about personal tastes and musical experiences. If you don't like them fine, but really, don't try to tell the ones that do like them why they shouldn't, so far from what I've seen, it's been a futile effort. This one has been beaten to death and it's time to move on to "All Audio and No Attitude!"

Now maybe we can start a thread about why you think "your" particular speakers are so special, yes, all of them. :D Retro
Here here! :thmbsp:

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
I think the main problem here between the folks who like them, and the ones that don't, is that the ones that don't can't figure out "why" they are liked by the ones that do. Basically, the ones that don't like them, try to prove to the people that do like them, that they shouldn't.

I can't speak for everyone but that's not my agenda. I don't particularly like HPM-100's but I don't begrudge anyone else their affinity for them. What I'd like to see is the actual response, crossovers, etc. and figure out what it is about them that people do like. Then if someone says "I want some speakers like HPM-100's" I'll know what characteristics they're looking for. I also think it could be helpful to figure out what it is that people don't like. You could make HPM tweaks more meaningful if you know what it is you're trying to change.

I wouldn't want to talk anyone out of speakers they like. For my part, that's not what this is all about.

Ray
 
You could make HPM tweaks more meaningful if you know what it is you're trying to change.

Ray

The whole point to MOST of these threads from people who do NOT like HPM 100 speakers is to tweak them into something they might like! Notice who started this thread, a known HPM 100 "disliker", is that a word? :D

Now, if you don't like them, fine, the people who DO like them don't care. As far as I'm concerned, they don't need tweaking, and they never did. The only people that "THINK" they need tweaking are the ones who never liked them to begin with.

Believe it or not, the designer of the HPM 100 speaker was NOT an idiot, although, there are some here who would believe otherwise. He designed them to sound just exactly as they do. Just make sure the ones you own are working properly. ALL the drivers. They are a bookshelf speaker and need to be up off the ground, mine are up about 16" on stands and about 10 feet apart (actaul recommendation is 8' to 12' apart). Stay away from the corners a couple of feet either way, and face them straight ahead. I don't know how many times the proper way to set them up has been mentioned here, but I personally, have mentioned it at least 10 times in these forums. It seems to fall on deaf ears though, no pun intended. If you still don't like them after you've moved them into the position I've suggested here, and they are working properly, sell them, or give them to someone who will appreciate them, there are plenty of people out there who DO! :D

This is probably the first time I've responded to a "Speaker Forum" HPM 100 thread in over 2 years, I just wish the people who didn't like them could do the same thing. I'm done.




Retro
 
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