Hpm-Econo Redo, Aka Kpm-10.0
- Thread starter Kegger
- Start date
My drivers & the rest of the the bits arrived today from PE.So its time to get busy.I dragged the HPM's out of the basement and hooked 'em up to make sure the woofers were still woofin'.I,m going to extend the cab upward to house the horn & XO.Then I,ll resheathe the outside of the cabs with some kind of veneerd ply.Seems like it should be fairly easy.
David
David
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Funny you should mention that, as after reading your post I said to myself...
Humm, if he is building an extension to the top and if he seals that up he could cut a big
ol'e hole in the top to open it up into the new chamber making the internal volume larger,
well dam that's what I'd do for sure!
How much of an extension were you thinking? (make sure it's worthwhile to cut in)
If you do, give me the new dimensions when your done and I'll recalculate the ports then.
So yah if your building a top extension and it's sealed up then I would sure cut into the cab.
Your still flipping the original cab upside down right so the woofer is now at the top correct?
Humm, if he is building an extension to the top and if he seals that up he could cut a big
ol'e hole in the top to open it up into the new chamber making the internal volume larger,
well dam that's what I'd do for sure!
How much of an extension were you thinking? (make sure it's worthwhile to cut in)
If you do, give me the new dimensions when your done and I'll recalculate the ports then.
So yah if your building a top extension and it's sealed up then I would sure cut into the cab.
Your still flipping the original cab upside down right so the woofer is now at the top correct?
Spectrum77
Super Member
Kegger- Are the positions of the port holes in the back of the cab critical to performance? If so, would you please give some suggestions as to where they would be best in a 24"W X 37"H X 15"D cabinet?
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Won't mean anything to the xover, just give me the final dimensions when your done and I'll recalculate the port lengths.
Were you able to knock out the mid range chamber alright?
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
No not really, I'd put them down towards the bottom, leaving say 3" from the port
edge to the bottom of the cab, same spacing from port edge to the sides of the cab.
(1 port on each side in the back, similar to what I did on mine but you have more room)
Again it's not critical but above is probably what I'd do.
Spectrum77
Super Member
Spectrum77
Super Member
In Japanese, the ply is called 'rowan'- but this is a translation, so I'm uncertain exactly what timber it is. It's quite soft, scars easily but its all that's commonly available over here. When clear sealed, it comes out a fairly warm colour. My random flavour selection at the home centre was a 'light teak' flavoured stain. This came out OK on the re-finished NS-1000s.
Spectrum77
Super Member
Meet KEGZILA I:
The name is derived from KEGger and ZILch, two comfortable bed partners who have spawned a beautiful love child.
Still have a lot more listening and experimenting to do. First tests I heard quite a few new things on familiar recordings. Bass moved the room- in a good way. I was left feeling that I wanted 'more' mids. Did a lot of fiddling with positioning, ended up back at lots of toe-in and close to side walls (closer than pictured and a little bit further back). That made a considerable difference. Then tried some tube rolling- a very noticable change for the better. At this early stage I'm guessing that these speakers reveal different sonic facets than my other speakers. I'm hesistant to say 'more revealing', but I think I'm discovering new attributes of the of tube signatures, the influence of the room dynamics and the characteristics of the sources. Just guessing, mind you!
I couldn't have built these speakers without Kegger (in the literal sense of the term, not metaphorical) and the motivation of Zilch- I wouldn't have had the confidence without the guidance of these gents, and all others posting their projects.
The name is derived from KEGger and ZILch, two comfortable bed partners who have spawned a beautiful love child.
Still have a lot more listening and experimenting to do. First tests I heard quite a few new things on familiar recordings. Bass moved the room- in a good way. I was left feeling that I wanted 'more' mids. Did a lot of fiddling with positioning, ended up back at lots of toe-in and close to side walls (closer than pictured and a little bit further back). That made a considerable difference. Then tried some tube rolling- a very noticable change for the better. At this early stage I'm guessing that these speakers reveal different sonic facets than my other speakers. I'm hesistant to say 'more revealing', but I think I'm discovering new attributes of the of tube signatures, the influence of the room dynamics and the characteristics of the sources. Just guessing, mind you!
I couldn't have built these speakers without Kegger (in the literal sense of the term, not metaphorical) and the motivation of Zilch- I wouldn't have had the confidence without the guidance of these gents, and all others posting their projects.
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Way cool spectrum! Love the name to :thmbsp:
Tube rolling with these speakers is very much noticable, you can really tweak
things around an hopefully find some truly sweet combos.
(been doing a bunch of tube rolling myself lately)
I find they definatly react to whatever you do to them and let things shine on
through quite easily, not much of there own signature, even the bass for how
much an low there is so easily that it still gets detail in there other speakers I
have just don't do.
Do give us some more impressions once you get some extended listening there.
(Can I see a shot of the back of the speakers, please?)
Tube rolling with these speakers is very much noticable, you can really tweak
things around an hopefully find some truly sweet combos.
(been doing a bunch of tube rolling myself lately)
I find they definatly react to whatever you do to them and let things shine on
through quite easily, not much of there own signature, even the bass for how
much an low there is so easily that it still gets detail in there other speakers I
have just don't do.
Do give us some more impressions once you get some extended listening there.
(Can I see a shot of the back of the speakers, please?)
Spectrum77
Super Member
Sorry, no rear pics just yet...
Moderate volume was great, easy to listen to, smooth and had overall balance. 'Loud' wasn't nearly so pleasureable, vocals became a bit harsh. I turned down the volume, whereas usually midway through the evening the sound is increased :drunk: I did continue however, with a very enjoyable session for a few hours after decreasing the volume.
I have more experimenting to do before I can go on to supporting or refuting either or both of these ideas, I would appreciate others' thoughts;
1. Because I can hear fine detail of sources, such as singers taking breaths, fingers touching strings, I'm thinking that KEGZILA I is capable of reproducing equipment fine detail as well- for better or worse.
2. The speakers sound harsher at loud levels than moderate levels.
I'm curious to discover whether a different tube will have a positive effect. I have Chinese, Baldwin 12AX7s and a pair of re-issue Mullard AX7s, but am waiting for a dead tube to be replaced.
I'd be keen to compare a slight increase in vocals at moderate volume, they seemed to be a little in the background. Above moderate volume, vocals were still a bit distant.
At any volume, the term 'suspension of belief' used to describe storytelling came to mind- there was a sense of realism to the music. Tonality of instruments was different in a live presence kind of way; could easily discern each instrument and 'see a sonic image' of where the musician was playing it.
Moderate volume was great, easy to listen to, smooth and had overall balance. 'Loud' wasn't nearly so pleasureable, vocals became a bit harsh. I turned down the volume, whereas usually midway through the evening the sound is increased :drunk: I did continue however, with a very enjoyable session for a few hours after decreasing the volume.
I have more experimenting to do before I can go on to supporting or refuting either or both of these ideas, I would appreciate others' thoughts;
1. Because I can hear fine detail of sources, such as singers taking breaths, fingers touching strings, I'm thinking that KEGZILA I is capable of reproducing equipment fine detail as well- for better or worse.
2. The speakers sound harsher at loud levels than moderate levels.
I'm curious to discover whether a different tube will have a positive effect. I have Chinese, Baldwin 12AX7s and a pair of re-issue Mullard AX7s, but am waiting for a dead tube to be replaced.
I'd be keen to compare a slight increase in vocals at moderate volume, they seemed to be a little in the background. Above moderate volume, vocals were still a bit distant.
At any volume, the term 'suspension of belief' used to describe storytelling came to mind- there was a sense of realism to the music. Tonality of instruments was different in a live presence kind of way; could easily discern each instrument and 'see a sonic image' of where the musician was playing it.
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
A different tube roll/better then stock chinese tubes I would think will sound better.
I wouldn't be looking for a tube to "fix" a sound issue your not "happy" with though.
I had issues with the tweeters when I first fired mine up, I think they do break in an
sound smoother after quite a few hours on the speakers, same for the caps/resistors.
The foam inserts I described on the Econowave thread help for higher SPL listening to.
If you'd like more mid/vocals I say reduce the cap in the zobel and or increase resistor,
this doesn't need much tweaking/adjustment and will have quite an effect.
I thought mine were a bit "to" revealing/harsh at first unless the recording was top notch
but after I believe some break in and the foam inserts I don't feel that way anymore, now
I find unless the recording is just plain bad they sound really good on everything.
Also I do not listen to the speakers an axis, I am slightly off axis with the speakers pointing
more towards the center of the room and not aimed at my listening position.
I wouldn't be looking for a tube to "fix" a sound issue your not "happy" with though.
I had issues with the tweeters when I first fired mine up, I think they do break in an
sound smoother after quite a few hours on the speakers, same for the caps/resistors.
The foam inserts I described on the Econowave thread help for higher SPL listening to.
If you'd like more mid/vocals I say reduce the cap in the zobel and or increase resistor,
this doesn't need much tweaking/adjustment and will have quite an effect.
I thought mine were a bit "to" revealing/harsh at first unless the recording was top notch
but after I believe some break in and the foam inserts I don't feel that way anymore, now
I find unless the recording is just plain bad they sound really good on everything.
Also I do not listen to the speakers an axis, I am slightly off axis with the speakers pointing
more towards the center of the room and not aimed at my listening position.
Spectrum77
Super Member
Yes, I'm keeping notes. It will be an interesting (first) experience to keep a log of developing impressions.
Something to try, for sure. R100- now I have a 15ohm in there- to increase mid-band I think I need a higher value cap (20ohm, 30 ohm). I'll order a couple and try them out.
That's where mine are now.
This is a great aspect to the hobby, thoroughly enjoying it.
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
The caps are C100, and the resistor is R100 in the Zobel, if your R is 15ohm, then I'd
suggest you do the cap instead and decrease it rather than increase the resistor to a
size larger then 15 - 16 ohm, I would call that tops.
The cap can be taken down to as low as say 7uf, from that 15uf I stated in the xover.
------------------
Yah I'm not sure what has changed that much from the initial turn on till now so far as
the smoothness and non etchyness to vocals ecpesially, I believe it is the selenium to
be the one that has gotten better sounding with a bit of "time" on it, but I'd suspect all
the xover parts as well. Plus that foam does wonders, I'd suggest you try an find some
in your area. (the particulars to the foam are in the Econo thread)
There has definatly been a change to the speakers in there sound from when I first had
bulit them till now, before I'd always had to have the L-Pad down a bit keeping the tweet
a little on the dull side as it was just to hot sounding to the point of being a bit harsh, but
now I can actually turn that tweeter up past being flat without any harshness to it, I have
kept the foam in there though to from the first time I did the testing, it just works well.
There's lots of gear that goes through my system an I know the sound of my test material
I use quite well, I can tell quite easilly when something is not right in here. I was sceptical
for a while with the speakers first into my main system on whether or not I was going to be
able to get these things to sound good enough to stay for any length of time, now they are
right up there with the best of the bunch I've had here if not better for my particular wants
and needs at the present.
If you need to, keep asking questions, I'll help as much as I can.
suggest you do the cap instead and decrease it rather than increase the resistor to a
size larger then 15 - 16 ohm, I would call that tops.
The cap can be taken down to as low as say 7uf, from that 15uf I stated in the xover.
------------------
Yah I'm not sure what has changed that much from the initial turn on till now so far as
the smoothness and non etchyness to vocals ecpesially, I believe it is the selenium to
be the one that has gotten better sounding with a bit of "time" on it, but I'd suspect all
the xover parts as well. Plus that foam does wonders, I'd suggest you try an find some
in your area. (the particulars to the foam are in the Econo thread)
There has definatly been a change to the speakers in there sound from when I first had
bulit them till now, before I'd always had to have the L-Pad down a bit keeping the tweet
a little on the dull side as it was just to hot sounding to the point of being a bit harsh, but
now I can actually turn that tweeter up past being flat without any harshness to it, I have
kept the foam in there though to from the first time I did the testing, it just works well.
There's lots of gear that goes through my system an I know the sound of my test material
I use quite well, I can tell quite easilly when something is not right in here. I was sceptical
for a while with the speakers first into my main system on whether or not I was going to be
able to get these things to sound good enough to stay for any length of time, now they are
right up there with the best of the bunch I've had here if not better for my particular wants
and needs at the present.
If you need to, keep asking questions, I'll help as much as I can.