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I can't get my head around anti-skating.

C

CharLimitDum

New Member
I'm starting to think that my turntable (an Audio-Technica AT-LP120) has a cheap one that doesn't work the way it's meant to. I tried using a laserdisc to regulate it (I know this isn't a proper way to do it but read the following), I saw some people do that with their top-of-the-line Technics SL-1200 so that the stylus doesn't skate in any direction no matter where you lower it, mine doesn't work like that. Setting the AS to the same value as my tracking force of 2 grams would make the stylus skate towards the outer region of the disc and settle there: changing the value of the AS only changed where it settled, if I lower the value, the tonearm just settles in a region closer to the center of the disc.

Example scenario: Whenever I try to play a 7 inch single I get anxious because when I lower the stylus into the run-in grooves, it skates into them at a dangerously high speed/force, it even skated off it and on the rubber mat once (luckily, I picked it up very quickly and the stylus seemed to be fine)

It seems that for my TT to work ideally, I'd theoretically have to slightly lower the anti-skating value as I'm playing a record.

People with more experience than me, what are your thoughts?
 
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In reality, the skating force is constantly changing according to the diameter of the groove the stylus is playing. So there is no one-size-fits-all way to compensate for it with anti-skating. The best you can do is adjust it so that it works correctly at the middle of a side of a 12" LP.

All AT-LP120 turntables manufactured since the beginning of 2017 (serial number beginning with 17 or higher) should have correctly functioning anti-skating. Older ones have anti-skating which Audio-Technica admits is "weak", but if you're not afraid of diassembling the turntable and tonearm, you can either modify the anti-skating spring to increase its tension, or order an upgraded anti-skating spring from Audio-Technica and install it

That's what I did with my AT-LP120, and I can confirm that now, according to the quick method of the anti-skating -- by putting the tonearm down in the middle of a 12" blank LP or LaserDisc and adjusting the anti-skating until the tonearm remains stationary -- its anti-skating is now functioning correctly. After adjusting the anti-skating according to this method, the reading on the dial is very close to the tracking force... which ideally you should measure with a gauge rather than trusting the reading on the counterweight after balancing the tonearm, as I've found it can be up to a half a gram off compared to what the tracking force actually is. (Even on my Technics SL-1900, not just on the AT-LP120.)
 
vwestlife said:
In reality, the skating force is constantly changing according to the diameter of the groove the stylus is playing. So there is no one-size-fits-all way to compensate for it with anti-skating. The best you can do is adjust it so that it works correctly at the middle of a side of a 12" LP.

All AT-LP120 turntables manufactured since the beginning of 2017 (serial number beginning with 17 or higher) should have correctly functioning anti-skating. Older ones have anti-skating which Audio-Technica admits is "weak", but if you're not afraid of diassembling the turntable and tonearm, you can either modify the anti-skating spring to increase its tension, or order an upgraded anti-skating spring from Audio-Technica and install it

That's what I did with my AT-LP120, and I can confirm that now, according to the quick method of the anti-skating -- by putting the tonearm down in the middle of a 12" blank LP or LaserDisc and adjusting the anti-skating until the tonearm remains stationary -- its anti-skating is now functioning correctly. After adjusting the anti-skating according to this method, the reading on the dial is very close to the tracking force... which ideally you should measure with a gauge rather than trusting the reading on the counterweight after balancing the tonearm, as I've found it can be up to a half a gram off compared to what the tracking force actually is. (Even on my Technics SL-1900, not just on the AT-LP120.)
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I heard of the anti skating problems that the LP120 has, I have the more recent 120X version so I shouldn't have that problem.I appreciate the reply!
 
Although skating force varies throughout LP play, when using a Laserdisc or blank LP to set anti-skating force the arm should slowly move toward the outside. This is because the groove in an LP with no modulation at all causes skating.
 
You can find cheap laser discs at Discount Laser Disc as low as $5. Cheaper than buying a blank vinyl record sold for anti skate adjustment.
 
I take anti-skating with a grain of salt. My PL-41 doesn’t have it. Doesn’t need it, sounds excellent.

AR XA TTs don’t have anti-skating either. Apparently they don’t need it.

My RPM3 does have magnetic AS. I use it with a grain of salt. I have numerous LPs that are a bit off-centered. I can watch the tonearm move back and forth. One more reason to take AS with a grain of salt.
 
A blank disc will help you to discover the relationship between the AS dial numbers and the effect it has on the tonearm's behavior. I use the blank disc to set all of my tables, including the AR-XA, which can be manipulated by adjusting the exiting tonearm wires. Without a blank disc, its like pissing in the dark. The dial should never be trusted, especially on vintage machines. In the end, a properly aligned cartridge requires a properly set AS as it will affect the alignment during playing with having both perimeters set properly.

In the end, it will result in an excellent sound stage, almost no stylus wear, almost no record wear, no IGD and with a proper table, no cueing issues at drop. There are some tables that do not have the AS engage until a bit into the record grooves to prevent a fly away stylus going to the outside of the record (which it should never do). If your particular table has some odd behaviors in this regard, it is best to set for zero arm movement between the alignment null points, or pretty much in the center of the playable area.
 
Also keep in mind those 45's could have been used in a jukebox and played to death, hardly any sidewall left. Though you pointed out it doesn't do this on 33 1/3rds kind of pointed me to this conclusion.
 
I wonder how close the coefficient of sliding friction of (carbon loaded) vinyl is to polycarbonate, or whatever they make laser discs from. If they aren't close I would assume that the skating force would be different, so the amount of antiskating applied would be too. Of course, its possible the error might actually be beneficial in some cases.
 
Tracking at the heavier end of range may alleviate absolute necessity for anti skate, but will produce uneven stylus pressure on the groove walls and unequal stylus contact patch wear (attrition).
 
Nat said:
I wonder how close the coefficient of sliding friction of (carbon loaded) vinyl is to polycarbonate, or whatever they make laser discs from. If they aren't close I would assume that the skating force would be different, so the amount of antiskating applied would be too. Of course, its possible the error might actually be beneficial in some cases.
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And I was going to order one of those cheap laser discs. Now your having me over think it. :D
 
I use a blank record that is made for record machines that cut record grooves (like one offs) rather then stamping. You can find them on the auction site. It's 12" and black in color.
 
That's true about tracking at the heavier end of the range, but at the lighter end of the range, you risk mistracking, and that causes groove damage. Of course the perfect tracking force depends on variables like temperature and the record itself, so the sweet spot is a difficult place to find.
 
I always thought that a spring anti-skating was gimicky, compared to a weight/ string or a canti-lever one. Spring tension changes with time and are in-consistant, what do you guys think?
 
turboyam said:
I always thought that a spring anti-skating was gimicky, compared to a weight/ string or a canti-lever one. Spring tension changes with time and are in-consistant, what do you guys think?
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I think AS is gimmicky in general. The force of the pull inward on the tonearm varies as the tonearm moves towards the center. So what is the correct setting?

So many LPs are slightly off centered. You can see the arm move back and forth. Of what value is AS on off centered LPs?

I do use and set the magnetic AS on my ProJect RPM3 for what it’s worth. I have nothing against AS. If it’s there as a feature on my table I will use it. But I doubt it’s value.
 
Jim Creek said:
I think AS is gimmicky in general. The force of the pull inward on the tonearm varies as the tonearm moves towards the center. So what is the correct setting?

So many LPs are slightly off centered. You can see the arm move back and forth. Of what value is AS on off centered LPs?

I do use and set the magnetic AS on my ProJect RPM3 for what it’s worth. I have nothing against AS. If it’s there as a feature on my table I will use it. But I doubt it’s value.
Click to expand...
Well, some canti-levers AS probably compensate for that?.
 
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