• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

I can't get my head around anti-skating.

Nat said:
Given that most tables aren't (and never were) bought from, and set up by, dealers, it seems a little hard on the dealers to blame them. Clearly most of the public thought 'good enough' was just fine - otherwise they would have bought turntables from dealers and demanded proper set up, the cost be hanged. But most buyers will drive two hours to save two bucks, and mail order was big even in the 60s and 70s.
I also think that you are overstating how consistent the correct antiskating force is - you can set it perfectly for one section of music, and it's wrong for others, so all that oscilloscope work is specific to that cut, on that record.
Click to expand...
Well, if you do have a test record with test strips located all over the sections - you can check AS force correctness on whole record.
 
I was responding to c_dk's stating that there was only one 'correct' way to set antiskating, with a record and an oscilloscope, and that if dealers weren't so cheap, they would do it for you. While I agree that it is a fine way to do it, I disagreed about it being the only way, and I think it is unfair and even ridiculous to accuse dealers of causing the problem.
I have used test records, and for years I had a copy of the Edgar Winter Group double album with the blank side, which gave maximum freedom as to where to check it.
 
There are a lot of strongly stated opinions about how to adjust antiskating, and about whether it is even needed, but I'm not convinced that anyone actually has a definitive answer or strategy. Apparently a lot of different ways work for a lot of different ears, perhaps because equipment and records are so varied.
I figure either the tonearm or turntable manufacturer's recommendation or the blank record are good places to start and, for the unambitious, may be a reasonable place to stop. My experience is that the two are relatively close, usually.
 
The best way, without any extra equipment, is to have a CD-4 system. The anti-skate MUST be pretty much right on to avoid distortion.

:D

Doug
 
Of course, some people might view the necessary demodulator as extra equipment. Nonetheless, that is an interesting point you are making, and might point to a better, if not easier, way of setting antiskating.
 
Hehe, I guess by "extra equipment", I meant not directly in the audio path (like an oscilloscope). But it was kind of tongue-in-cheek.

Setting up for CD-4, however, did allow me to discover exactly where I had to have anti-skate set and it was a bit different from where I had it set for regular two channel records. Not a lot different, though.

:D

Doug
 
Can you describe the process, the difference in adjustment, and how it changed how it sounded?
 
Definitely arm dependent. As others I have an AR XA that eschews AS, and others with different approaches to AS.

My two Kenwood decks having different arms have different requirements. The AS scale on the KD770D seems to align perfectly with the VTF setting, not so much the Grace G707 on the KD500. Tried everything from maximum AS to taking the weight off, but the closest I've found is leaving the weight on but at its least amount of AS, as in pushed all the way back on the AS lever. This is with the Grace cartridge installed running at 1.2 grams.

Here's the thing, the bearings in the Grace are known for their ultra low friction and the arm will swing outward with "any" amount of AS applied as the arm lowers. Maybe if the cueing lever had rubber on top where the arm rests as does the KD770D lift this might not be the case eh?

Sure adding additional AS would ameliorate the issue but that's definitely not the answer. For that matter just exactly what is the issue? So the arm swings outward a bit as it's lowered, what's the problem? Line the arm up a bit inward of the lead in area so as it drops the outward swing will land the stylus where you want it, easy peasy.

In other words, don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.
 
CD-4 is really sensitive to anti-skate because both sides of the groove must be tracked pretty much perfectly to avoid what is called "sandpaper distortion". So, I just kept playing CD-4 records susceptible to distortion and kept varying the anti-skate until there was no distortion, ever.

Doug
 
I assumed that was the case. Did you find the needed amount changed significantly depending on modulation? By what proportion did it typically differ from the manufacturer's recommendation (presumably for line contact styli if such a mark was provided, and if not, elliptical)?
 
Actually, once I got it set for one of the more difficult records, I didn't have to change it from then on. The actual setting ended up being about 75% of the recommended setting, which was to set the anti-skate dial to the same setting as the VTF scale. So, if the VTF scale is at, say 1 gram, the anti-skate dial would be set to .75.

Doug
 
That's interesting. Back when I used very high compliance cartridges, I was frustrated that the 'correct' setting for antiskating deflected the stylus considerably, which seemed to wipe out any advantage gained by careful alignment or careful matching of cartridge to arm. I tended to back off somewhat just to lessen the deflection, and I have to say it sounded fine.
 
Nat said:
That's interesting. Back when I used very high compliance cartridges, I was frustrated that the 'correct' setting for antiskating deflected the stylus considerably, which seemed to wipe out any advantage gained by careful alignment or careful matching of cartridge to arm. I tended to back off somewhat just to lessen the deflection, and I have to say it sounded fine.
Click to expand...
Anti-skating compensation is primarily intended for ligher tracking high-compliance stylii, but tracking at the top of suggested range without is doable. Regardless, the result without properly calibrated A-S is unequal tracking pressure on the groove walls.
This is one of two attractions for linear arm tracking schemes, equal groove wall tracking pressure. The other, lowest lateral tracking angle error.
 
Pio1980 said:
Anti-skating compensation is primarily intended for ligher tracking high-compliance stylii, but tracking at the top of suggested range without is doable. Regardless, the result without properly calibrated A-S is unequal tracking pressure on the groove walls.
This is one of two attractions for linear arm tracking schemes, equal groove wall tracking pressure. The other, lowest lateral tracking angle error.
Click to expand...
Non just high-compliance. I see very sharp difference AS is making when running, say, trackability tests from Ortofon test disk.
In fact, this is great way to get AS correct - to make sure the distortion starts to appear in both channels at the same time. When AS is wrong, it appears in one channel first (and resulting trackability is less).
 
That attraction to linear arms has to include a belief in the long term (and even short term) accuracy of the error correction of the arm mechanism. And at this point, even if the arm was pretty dead on to begin with, all sorts of things start to go kaflooey after a couple of decades. It's instructive watching linear arms actually straighten themselves out as they cue up off the record - suggests maybe they weren't so linear right before they were lifted off the record.
Of course, such a thing would never happen with a properly maintained or refurbished arm. But it is a constant hazard of many such mechanisms.
I hate to admit it, but, even though I love pivoted arms and use them, some of the linear arms I've come across have surprised me by how good (better) they sound than most pivoted arms. I hate cuing linear arms, and there is no romance to them, so I'm unlikely to actually adopt one, but I do get why other people swear by them. But they'd better use them often to keep the lubricants from drying up, and they should keep an eye on when things start to get hinkey.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom