All just my opinion and a topic that has been beaten pretty well. I had just read another "waste of money mine sounded as good" post somewhere else and since I had a little time to waste......
If someone talks about or buys a piece of gear that costs say 5-6x more than most usually pay, there are quite a few who seem to think that since it cost 5-6x more, it should sound 5x better than what they are using.
If only it were so easy.
I am of a mind that detail, clarity etc are cheap. I can go out to my garage and listen to my Kenwood KR-7600 and at the moment B&W DM2 speakers and at not super loud volumes, hear all of the detail, clarity etc that I could want. Same as if I had my TF-400’s hooked up and whatever amp/receiver.
I believe you will get that out of the most basic of systems (decent systems a given).
But where I believe it starts to get expensive is when you start striving for the nuances. As my system got better (for me, others could think it stinks), it is those nuances that started to matter to me. It was a given I would have the detal and clarity, but now I was seeking things that tho I have listened to music a lot since the 70’s had never given much thought to. What I was drawn to now were words like transparency, layering,texturing, resolution etc.
Yea, yea yea that guitar sounds pretty real, but now I wanted to hear that Rick Danko was standing a bit in front of and to the left of Robertson. Now it wasn’t just hearing an almost life like cymbal crash, but now I was listening for the decay of that cymbal as the music continued. Good drummers use that decay to add to the music and now I wanted to be sure I was hearing what the drummer intended
On a side note, one thing listening for these things did for me was give me a much bigger appreciation for a good artist. Now that I was actually “listening”, I often hear very small details the artist put in the song that I never noticed before. Maybe something like a very brief 4-6 real soft second guitar lick that when heard, sounds just perfect in the song. Those things often amaze me as it is the strictest attention to detail and the artists have to know that very few (relatively) will even notice. But for those that do notice…….perfect.
Anyway, I digressed. I say it is these small nuances that is the reason some gear cost so much money. If I happened to have the fortune to drop say $20k on an amp, I am not expecting it to sound 20 times better than my restored/upgraded vintage amps that are worth maybe $800-$1k at most.
No, I am expecting that amp to help me down the road as far as those “other words” are concerned. I am hoping/expecting to now have better layering, more transparency etc.
Also, another oft overlooked aspect is the gear it is hooked up with. Those same people think I can just drop that $20k amp in my current system and tada…….I will now have $20k better sound.
Again, wish it were that easy and again is why it gets so expensive. If I am getting that $20k amp, taking for granted it is actually worth it (yes, a lot of gear is over priced, but not all by a long shot) it is all going to depend on the associated gear in my system.
Dropping $20k on an amp to hook up to my B&W DM2 is probably not going to give me the results I am seeking and not knowing better, could come to the conclusion I just wasted $20k. When u do start getting into that kind of gear, every single piece of gear (and some say cables), makes a difference. Given a good piece of gear, if there are any weak spots in the system it will show up. At times it could even sound worse then what you had. It isn’t the amps fault or a waste of money, it is just telling you there are other flaws in your system. So many times I have read where someone would say they hooked up a piece of gear like this in their system (and why I posted this) and thought it was a total waste of money and their late 70’s midfi piece of gear sounded as good or often better. From then on out, they feel they have experienced that expensive piece of gear so will tell the world what a waste of money it is –“ I tried it and my stuff was still better”
Of course the flaw in this often used opinion is that vintage midfi piece sounded better because it was masking all of the flaws in the rest of the system. Reverse things and drop that midfi receiver into a system worthy of that $20k amp and now compare the results to that amp. I would guess it would take you under a minute to change your mind.
So there is a reason, imo, that some gear is expensive. It isn’t people throwing their money away and just because some gear is overpriced does not mean all gear is.
It is the nuances you are paying for. You are listening to Robertson starting to edge towards Clapton on the stage, which you don’t get with the lesser gear (I was just listening to The Last Waltz, can you tell). That extra decay, resolution, the texture, the air etc is what you are paying for. I would not be expecting something 3-4x as good in the sense I hook it up and go wow (tho depends on where you are coming from as you could very well go wow), but instead I am trying to edge the system closer and closer to what I believe is the most life like, realistic sound I could get. – Now that can get expensive – and is also when you start getting into “voodoo” topics for many – cables, line conditioners etc…..but that of course is another debate….
Now I do have the opinion that it is possible to take that vintage or other piece of gear and if it was a near totl or totl unit back in the day, upgrade it and restore it to where it may not be better or even as good as that 20k amp, but it would put it in the ball park.
It is very well possible I just have this opinion to jutsify my gear as I do not have $20k to drop on one piece if gear, but I think as long as the piece of gear was a top flight circuit back "in the day", the circuit, for the most part, should still be good today. The biggest difference, imo, would be the components used inside. Their is a HUGE difference in the quality of compoinents made today, plus a lot more choices. What may have been a very expensive film cap in 1979 could possibly be considered a very low quality one today. So if you can make room to stuff in some high quality caps , say some Mundorf silver/oil etc, and pretty much switchg out all of the components, reistors included, to what would be considred audiophile standard stuff today, given a good design that old amp may very well be able to compete with the new $20 one. Of course if possible or needed you can also upgrade the transistors etc.......some argue that it is no longer "original", but for me, all I really care about is the end result with no concern that I have deviated from their late 70's component choices. I'd guess if it was totl back then and they had a choice, they would have used these components also. They just had to use the best available at the time.
So I do believe it is possible to buy a nice totl or near totl piece of gear that had a good design, spend some time and anywhere from a few hundred to $6-800 on very high quality components and turn that vintage piece of gear into something that could be highly competitive - but I could also just be justifying my own choices also....
But as far as I am concerned, and from the perspective that I only wish I could afford the much more expensive gear, I believe it is worth every last penny if done with thought. It is too hard to put a price on all of those "words" - texture, air etc.
Sorry, Adderall just kicked in
If someone talks about or buys a piece of gear that costs say 5-6x more than most usually pay, there are quite a few who seem to think that since it cost 5-6x more, it should sound 5x better than what they are using.
If only it were so easy.
I am of a mind that detail, clarity etc are cheap. I can go out to my garage and listen to my Kenwood KR-7600 and at the moment B&W DM2 speakers and at not super loud volumes, hear all of the detail, clarity etc that I could want. Same as if I had my TF-400’s hooked up and whatever amp/receiver.
I believe you will get that out of the most basic of systems (decent systems a given).
But where I believe it starts to get expensive is when you start striving for the nuances. As my system got better (for me, others could think it stinks), it is those nuances that started to matter to me. It was a given I would have the detal and clarity, but now I was seeking things that tho I have listened to music a lot since the 70’s had never given much thought to. What I was drawn to now were words like transparency, layering,texturing, resolution etc.
Yea, yea yea that guitar sounds pretty real, but now I wanted to hear that Rick Danko was standing a bit in front of and to the left of Robertson. Now it wasn’t just hearing an almost life like cymbal crash, but now I was listening for the decay of that cymbal as the music continued. Good drummers use that decay to add to the music and now I wanted to be sure I was hearing what the drummer intended
On a side note, one thing listening for these things did for me was give me a much bigger appreciation for a good artist. Now that I was actually “listening”, I often hear very small details the artist put in the song that I never noticed before. Maybe something like a very brief 4-6 real soft second guitar lick that when heard, sounds just perfect in the song. Those things often amaze me as it is the strictest attention to detail and the artists have to know that very few (relatively) will even notice. But for those that do notice…….perfect.
Anyway, I digressed. I say it is these small nuances that is the reason some gear cost so much money. If I happened to have the fortune to drop say $20k on an amp, I am not expecting it to sound 20 times better than my restored/upgraded vintage amps that are worth maybe $800-$1k at most.
No, I am expecting that amp to help me down the road as far as those “other words” are concerned. I am hoping/expecting to now have better layering, more transparency etc.
Also, another oft overlooked aspect is the gear it is hooked up with. Those same people think I can just drop that $20k amp in my current system and tada…….I will now have $20k better sound.
Again, wish it were that easy and again is why it gets so expensive. If I am getting that $20k amp, taking for granted it is actually worth it (yes, a lot of gear is over priced, but not all by a long shot) it is all going to depend on the associated gear in my system.
Dropping $20k on an amp to hook up to my B&W DM2 is probably not going to give me the results I am seeking and not knowing better, could come to the conclusion I just wasted $20k. When u do start getting into that kind of gear, every single piece of gear (and some say cables), makes a difference. Given a good piece of gear, if there are any weak spots in the system it will show up. At times it could even sound worse then what you had. It isn’t the amps fault or a waste of money, it is just telling you there are other flaws in your system. So many times I have read where someone would say they hooked up a piece of gear like this in their system (and why I posted this) and thought it was a total waste of money and their late 70’s midfi piece of gear sounded as good or often better. From then on out, they feel they have experienced that expensive piece of gear so will tell the world what a waste of money it is –“ I tried it and my stuff was still better”
Of course the flaw in this often used opinion is that vintage midfi piece sounded better because it was masking all of the flaws in the rest of the system. Reverse things and drop that midfi receiver into a system worthy of that $20k amp and now compare the results to that amp. I would guess it would take you under a minute to change your mind.
So there is a reason, imo, that some gear is expensive. It isn’t people throwing their money away and just because some gear is overpriced does not mean all gear is.
It is the nuances you are paying for. You are listening to Robertson starting to edge towards Clapton on the stage, which you don’t get with the lesser gear (I was just listening to The Last Waltz, can you tell). That extra decay, resolution, the texture, the air etc is what you are paying for. I would not be expecting something 3-4x as good in the sense I hook it up and go wow (tho depends on where you are coming from as you could very well go wow), but instead I am trying to edge the system closer and closer to what I believe is the most life like, realistic sound I could get. – Now that can get expensive – and is also when you start getting into “voodoo” topics for many – cables, line conditioners etc…..but that of course is another debate….
Now I do have the opinion that it is possible to take that vintage or other piece of gear and if it was a near totl or totl unit back in the day, upgrade it and restore it to where it may not be better or even as good as that 20k amp, but it would put it in the ball park.
It is very well possible I just have this opinion to jutsify my gear as I do not have $20k to drop on one piece if gear, but I think as long as the piece of gear was a top flight circuit back "in the day", the circuit, for the most part, should still be good today. The biggest difference, imo, would be the components used inside. Their is a HUGE difference in the quality of compoinents made today, plus a lot more choices. What may have been a very expensive film cap in 1979 could possibly be considered a very low quality one today. So if you can make room to stuff in some high quality caps , say some Mundorf silver/oil etc, and pretty much switchg out all of the components, reistors included, to what would be considred audiophile standard stuff today, given a good design that old amp may very well be able to compete with the new $20 one. Of course if possible or needed you can also upgrade the transistors etc.......some argue that it is no longer "original", but for me, all I really care about is the end result with no concern that I have deviated from their late 70's component choices. I'd guess if it was totl back then and they had a choice, they would have used these components also. They just had to use the best available at the time.
So I do believe it is possible to buy a nice totl or near totl piece of gear that had a good design, spend some time and anywhere from a few hundred to $6-800 on very high quality components and turn that vintage piece of gear into something that could be highly competitive - but I could also just be justifying my own choices also....
But as far as I am concerned, and from the perspective that I only wish I could afford the much more expensive gear, I believe it is worth every last penny if done with thought. It is too hard to put a price on all of those "words" - texture, air etc.
Sorry, Adderall just kicked in
