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Improving the Fisher X-101C

Glad it's working well for you now! With your heater voltage that high when connected to 120 volts (or more), you really need to consider some sort of permanent plan to reduce the power to the unit. Operation from 120 vac is just cooking everything excessively.

Congrats on getting it all resolved!

Dave
 
Hello to the AK community.

For the Fisher fans that know me, they know that I'm trying to do my best in support this hobby making drawings and also supporting some AKers from the coffee land where I live.

A Few years ago (I guess more than 3 years)I found here in Colombia a X101C amplifier in no good conditions. (rusted every where, missing knobs, missing the emblem and the jewel) with the good luck that all the tubes (all original :) ) and all the transformers reamains good and working. A pair of 7591 the transconductance is a quite low but allows yet to adjust bias.

In the bottom under cover all was a disaster, local technicians made a mess replacing damaged resistors in the power supply replacing them by several in series as a german sausage among other areas.

So the job that I did after almost 9 months (when my wife and job allowed me) were replaced all coupling caps and resistors after the preamp stage, coupling caps in the preamp stage, power supply caps, new power resistors, new silicon diodes, miscellaneous caps, NTC resistors (CL-80) and a power relay to save the stock switch in the back of the volume potentiometer.

In addition a plastic tip in a slide switch (tape-phono) was reconstructed using the bakelite tip from another slide swtch to avoid remove the original rivets and try to maintain as much as original the amp.

Now after all this job done the amp is sounding very so fine without hum and without rare sounds and only with the stock design. Looking all this post and all comments and valuables feedbacks from @dcgillespie. I want to move to make the improvements for this amp and that's why I'm posting here. So I have some questions that probably can be goofy but that I know can make noise in a good way.

From a KX200 donor unit I have the power transformer that have very similar values that the x101c in the secondary windings and that have in addition another secondary tap winding with 26-0-26 VAC. I'm attaching the drawing from KX200 design. 20191102_225803.jpg

So to make the EFB and the new filament PS for the 12AX7 tubes I have planes to use this KX200 transformer.

So my quiestions are for @dcgillespie as follows.

1. For the new heaters and the PS op amp I have in mind to use this arrangement to feed these circuit using only one leg of the secondary (using a full wave rectifier with a 26-0 vac input) due to if I use the full wave rectifier is too high and use resitors to low the voltage is bulky and warm for the resistors used for this job.
MOm4c.png

And at the end of each LM7812 and LM7912 a diodes in series will be put to reduce in 0.6V to obtain 11.4vdc and -11.4vdc to feed the 12AX7 filaments and the OP AMP

2.Using a full wave rectifier with the 26-0-26 vac input and the 0 to ground for the new bias and efb power supply to avoid use the electrolityc capacitors in the voltage doubler circuit.


So what do you think Dave? your feedback is very valuable and appreciated.

Thank you

Luis.
 
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Hi Luis -- What a lucky break that you were able to obtain a KX-200 power transformer!

In a nut shell, if I understand your approach correctly, there are various problems, not the least of which is that you're trying to have a common transformer winding power two separate rectifier circuits that both have the winding reference chassis ground at different levels, which won't work. To make the winding of this transformer work will be tricky because as is, it has too much voltage for some of the applications, and not enough for others. The trick then is to produce the voltages needed with proper rectification, without having to drop a lot of unneeded voltage through large dropping resistors. If I may then, and if you are committed to using a dual rail supply, then I would approach your project this way:

1. There is no real need or practical result from regulating the heaters in this application. To power the heaters, the regulators would require heat sinking (likely to the chassis), transferring the heat of dropping resistors, to the regulators. Also, using just one-half of the winding to power the heaters with a bridge rectifier design will quickly overheat the winding, since it would be conducting current 100% of the time, whereas in the original design, each half only conducts current 50% of the time. The buffer amp does not require regulation either, nor any further reduction in ripple beyond that provided by the original filtering scheme because of the large common mode rejection factor the op amp has - particularly when operated from dual supplies. However, the regulators can still be quite useful to power the op-amp buffer (only) if a dual supply approach is taken, as will be shown.

2. To produce a proper dual (+/-) supply to power the op amp, the CT of the transformer winding must reference the CT of the op-amp supply to properly center the the 0 volt point between the rails of the supply. With that understanding then:

3. For the heaters, connect them in series/parallel pairs as shown for the KX-200.

4. For the heater supply, use the supply as shown for the KX-200 (without bias take off), including the filter network as shown.

5. For the other rail of op-amp supply, you would build a mirror image rectifier circuit (effectively making a full bridge), with the cathodes of these rectifiers (banded end) connected to the transformer winding. An appropriate filter cap would be connected between the output of these rectifiers (- to the rectifiers), and the transformer CT. The output of these rectifiers would also power the EFB™ Grid Bias Regulator.

6. The circuit now has the CT of the winding at (about) -32 vdc below ground (as in the KX-200), and the output of the additional diodes at (about) -64 vdc below ground.

7. Since this is too much voltage to power the op amp with, your + and - voltage regulators would be used to effective supply the op amp with +/- 12 vdc, but notice that the 0 volt point (neutral) of the op-amp supply is actually the -32 volt point (CT of the winding, as it should be), so that the + regulator is actually fed from ground, with its output representing -20 vdc relative to circuit ground, and the output of the - regulator (powered from the new diodes) representing - 44 vdc relative to circuit ground. As a result, input and output coupling caps must be used for the op-amp (like in the 400's buffer), because the 0 volt point of the buffer supply does not represent chassis ground with this scenario.

The only other option you have -- which is the best option in my opinion -- is to in fact ground the center tap, forcing the op-amp neutral to operate at true ground level. In that scenario, you need to "flip" the ground of the heater circuit so the the transformer CT is grounded, not the positive side. The filter resistor would be moved to the positive side as well, which prevents use of a common positive can for the heater filter cap. You still need the diodes representing the "other half" of the bridge to supply (in this case) about -32 vdc to the negative regulator for the op-amp, but the dual advantage of this approach is that the input and output coupling caps can be done away with in the buffer circuit, and, the heaters now operate positive with respect to ground, not negative -- which acts to further reduce any noise that might otherwise transfer between the heater/cathode junctions within the tubes. The down side of this approach is that now you need the use the special voltage multiplier circuit I developed for the original 400 receiver project, because the -32 volt supply that powers the -12 volt regulator for the op amp is not enough to power the EFB circuits. However, powering the EFB circuits from a source of about -100 vdc (which the multiplier circuit would produce in this case) really acts to make any line voltages invisible to the EFB regulator.

I know you were trying to get around using the multiplier circuit, but once again, it really is the best option, with the output cap of the circuit being the only one representing any significant size.

Finally, if you dispense with the idea of using dual supplies to power the op-amp, then things get pretty simple: use the existing KX-200 heater circuit as is (without the bias connection), power the op-amp with a faux balanced supply like it did in the 400 receiver scenario from the heater supply (in/out coupling caps required), and add on the two extra diodes and filter cap to create a -64 volt point to power the EFB regulator.

Good luck with your project!

Dave
 
Hi Luis -- What a lucky break that you were able to obtain a KX-200 power transformer!

In a nut shell, if I understand your approach correctly, there are various problems, not the least of which is that you're trying to have a common transformer winding power two separate rectifier circuits that both have the winding reference chassis ground at different levels, which won't work. To make the winding of this transformer work will be tricky because as is, it has too much voltage for some of the applications, and not enough for others. The trick then is to produce the voltages needed with proper rectification, without having to drop a lot of unneeded voltage through large dropping resistors. If I may then, and if you are committed to using a dual rail supply, then I would approach your project this way:

1. There is no real need or practical result from regulating the heaters in this application. To power the heaters, the regulators would require heat sinking (likely to the chassis), transferring the heat of dropping resistors, to the regulators. Also, using just one-half of the winding to power the heaters with a bridge rectifier design will quickly overheat the winding, since it would be conducting current 100% of the time, whereas in the original design, each half only conducts current 50% of the time. The buffer amp does not require regulation either, nor any further reduction in ripple beyond that provided by the original filtering scheme because of the large common mode rejection factor the op amp has - particularly when operated from dual supplies. However, the regulators can still be quite useful to power the op-amp buffer (only) if a dual supply approach is taken, as will be shown.

2. To produce a proper dual (+/-) supply to power the op amp, the CT of the transformer winding must reference the CT of the op-amp supply to properly center the the 0 volt point between the rails of the supply. With that understanding then:

3. For the heaters, connect them in series/parallel pairs as shown for the KX-200.

4. For the heater supply, use the supply as shown for the KX-200 (without bias take off), including the filter network as shown.

5. For the other rail of op-amp supply, you would build a mirror image rectifier circuit (effectively making a full bridge), with the cathodes of these rectifiers (banded end) connected to the transformer winding. An appropriate filter cap would be connected between the output of these rectifiers (- to the rectifiers), and the transformer CT. The output of these rectifiers would also power the EFB™ Grid Bias Regulator.

6. The circuit now has the CT of the winding at (about) -32 vdc below ground (as in the KX-200), and the output of the additional diodes at (about) -64 vdc below ground.

7. Since this is too much voltage to power the op amp with, your + and - voltage regulators would be used to effective supply the op amp with +/- 12 vdc, but notice that the 0 volt point (neutral) of the op-amp supply is actually the -32 volt point (CT of the winding, as it should be), so that the + regulator is actually fed from ground, with its output representing -20 vdc relative to circuit ground, and the output of the - regulator (powered from the new diodes) representing - 44 vdc relative to circuit ground. As a result, input and output coupling caps must be used for the op-amp (like in the 400's buffer), because the 0 volt point of the buffer supply does not represent chassis ground with this scenario.

The only other option you have -- which is the best option in my opinion -- is to in fact ground the center tap, forcing the op-amp neutral to operate at true ground level. In that scenario, you need to "flip" the ground of the heater circuit so the the transformer CT is grounded, not the positive side. The filter resistor would be moved to the positive side as well, which prevents use of a common positive can for the heater filter cap. You still need the diodes representing the "other half" of the bridge to supply (in this case) about -32 vdc to the negative regulator for the op-amp, but the dual advantage of this approach is that the input and output coupling caps can be done away with in the buffer circuit, and, the heaters now operate positive with respect to ground, not negative -- which acts to further reduce any noise that might otherwise transfer between the heater/cathode junctions within the tubes. The down side of this approach is that now you need the use the special voltage multiplier circuit I developed for the original 400 receiver project, because the -32 volt supply that powers the -12 volt regulator for the op amp is not enough to power the EFB circuits. However, powering the EFB circuits from a source of about -100 vdc (which the multiplier circuit would produce in this case) really acts to make any line voltages invisible to the EFB regulator.

I know you were trying to get around using the multiplier circuit, but once again, it really is the best option, with the output cap of the circuit being the only one representing any significant size.

Finally, if you dispense with the idea of using dual supplies to power the op-amp, then things get pretty simple: use the existing KX-200 heater circuit as is (without the bias connection), power the op-amp with a faux balanced supply like it did in the 400 receiver scenario from the heater supply (in/out coupling caps required), and add on the two extra diodes and filter cap to create a -64 volt point to power the EFB regulator.

Good luck with your project!

Dave

Dave thanks for your valuable feedback. :)

As you know a image worth more than words, so If mi approach is correct I did this drawing to place all your points and see if is correct regarding how to get the voltage in the OP-AMP. On the other hand for the EFB the BIAS POT (AS in the 400 mod) is ok?. All this stuff taking in account the center tap of the transformer to ground.

See attached:

kX200 transformer.jpg


Thank you

Luis
 
If you're going to do it that way, then you don't need the extra rectifiers to power the op-amp. Connect the 1K dropping resistor to the output of the heater rectifiers. Flip the op-amp filter caps to have their negative side grounded. Flip the isolation diode as well. Also flip the polarity of the bypass cap at the faux balance point within the buffer circuit. Finally, apply the + op-amp power to pin 4 of the op-amp, and ground pin 8.

The output of the EFB™ multiplier rectifier (in this case) will be about -95 to -100 vdc. R132 and 133 will need to be altered as well. We can do that when you get to it.

Dave
 
If you're going to do it that way, then you don't need the extra rectifiers to power the op-amp. Connect the 1K dropping resistor to the output of the heater rectifiers. Flip the op-amp filter caps to have their negative side grounded. Flip the isolation diode as well. Also flip the polarity of the bypass cap at the faux balance point within the buffer circuit. Finally, apply the + op-amp power to pin 4 of the op-amp, and ground pin 8.

The output of the EFB™ multiplier rectifier (in this case) will be about -95 to -100 vdc. R132 and 133 will need to be altered as well. We can do that when you get to it.

Dave

Dave

Due to the idea is to do this project with the KX200 power transformer in the best and simple way as you recommend, avoiding to use the multiplier rectifier, and after a patient and long time trying to digest this valuable info about how to get the -32 and the -64 volts ; I did this alternative drawing #2 that I think best option as you said as well.

kX200 transformer 2.jpg

What do you think Dave... the -64 volts cap (1000uF) is fine or another value is suggested?

Again thank you for your time in help :)


Luis
 
Luis -- Looks very good, with only one suggestion: The 1000 uF cap coming off the new rectifiers -- I would return its positive terminal to ground, rather than the transformer winding CT connection as shown. As is, the ripple voltage appearing at the winding CT is needlessly being added to the EFB supply rail by the new cap, only to be filtered out again by C128. Move the positive terminal of the new 1000 uF cap to ground, and then simply remove C128. Then you're good to go!

Dave
 
Got it Dave, now looking very well in detail the X101C modified drawings the bias pot after the wipe has another cap, so I´ll keep the 47uF cap before the EFB™ to maintain as much as original your design, see attached.


kX200 transformer 3.jpg

I´ll keep you posted with the status with this project.

Regards

Luis
 
Hello AK members,

I have just finished my first Fisher restoration after some other tube gears like some old Klangfilm from the 40's, 2 Stromberg ASR880, Pioneer SA-810, Pioneer SX-2000, Dynakit ST-70. It is an X-101-D model. I will thank for the usefull information shared by some of you. My unit was in average shape some rost dirt and so on someone tried to repair it in the past without success. Still had the original tubes from the 60's. Fisher (Sylvania) 12ax7's and Sylvania 7591's. The 7591's looked worn. Two of them have worn getter but I never give up at least with quality vintage tubes like copper plated 7591's or old DHTs. Made my usual rejuvenation tricks on my Funke W20 and they became still strong and close to each other like when they were mached by Sylvania. I restuffed the old cans. For this I use Roe 270uF/385V nos caps. They are good sounding high quality caps and fits into the old US made cans just fine. I used them by Stromberg, Pioneer and Klangfilm as well in the past. Changed the grid resistors to 200k 1% Siemens carbowid as I have some values. They are the finest resistors used by Klangfilm and other European manufacturers from 30"s to 60's. I won't change the cathode bias but I made the suggested zener update. All of my other tube gears from the 60's have fixed bias with 7868 or 7355 tubes. I left the Erofoil II coupling caps in place just paired it with Siemens 0.47uF Stiroflex (the BASF trademark name for styrene foil) and changed all the ceramics to Remix styrene caps (Siemens licensed localy made in the 70's on Siemens winding machines). I like the transparancy of these old high quality syrenes either Remix or Siemens equaly as they look and sound the same just the lettering is different. Made the high filter remove and tone control bypass switch for myself before I red this modification in this place. The suggested phono PEC removal and phono EQ upgrade as well. Now the Fisher is at the same level as my other restored vintage amps like the Stromberg, Pioneer any Dynakit. Although I think the original build quality was better by Stromberg but Fisher used better parts in some places like these Erofiol II caps. Pio had the highest overall build quality of them but these japanese carbon-film resistors and Suzuki caps just gone into trash not worth a penny. By the way in the Fisher I removed the two 0.47uF 400V Erofoils from the grids of the two 7591s. Fisher did a strange unusual thing as they mixed two 0.47 630V caps and two 0.47 400V caps by the outputs tubes. The 400V caps leaked sometimes in the past by pumped volumes for sure. I think that is way I see many used 7591 quads with the same result as mine. Two of them have worn getter caused by the many redplate events thanks to 400V caps used by two of them. Fisher did this consequently (space reason?) it was not exclusive only by mine unit. I saw pictures from other units with the same mistakes. Anyway I like this heater string bias method as it is simple and has some advantages as well. Pio and Stromberg used similar ways to dc heat the small signal tubes and cancel hum, etc at the same time. It has the advantages to lower the noise floor cancel the hum and some of the distortions just by extraction it from the useful signals with very good result. I will also mention I allways use silicone rubers under the mounting bolts of the transformers to cancel any mechanical noise. In the future I will add a similar bias balance pots as Stromberg did I installed this by the Pioneers as well as it will extend tube life. Removed speaker terminal bolts as usual. I don't like them and changed as all of my other restorations with old stock banana sockets. Just cut a new tread into the holes and it is easy to install my favourite banana sockets. Reused one of the center speaker terminals as bias checkpoint and the other as checkpoint for the small signal tube heater voltage certanly with banana sockets as well. I feel not confortable with using semiconductors in tube gears like fet and op. amp. so I don't plan to use these in this amp. Semi can short and could cause lot of damage. I use only high quality nos shottky diodes with tick copper leadouts as only semiconductor to replace the old seleniums. I had an 1500uF high voltage British made cap in hand so I tried it to feed the srceen grid with stable voltage. I think it is doing this task well. Screen stabilization resistors are some 100ohm 1% Siemens carbowids. The original Fisher 12ax7s still sound very good but I didn't measured them due to lack of time so I can't tell its condition. After some tube rolling I currently use 4x ECC801S 10 000 hour first production Valvo tubes with gold pins (later they don't use gold pins cos its higher costs) and 2x5751 Philips ECG mached as well in phase inverter position. Yes I know they are different animals than ECC83/12AX7A but they are so high quality tubes with mached halves within 0.5mA I had to try out. I meassured them with my Funke and all of them are really close to each other. I still use the old 7591s in place. Bias is steady 1.4V on 10ohm resistor. The amp sounds wonderfull I use the amp day and night to test it. Yes I switch it on in the evening with jazz and change to classical at night. It sounds with one of my fauvorite classical record all night and I listen it quite during my sleeptime as well.

Best regards,
 
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Thank you Dave, and everyone else for this wonderful thread! I recently acquired a X-101-C, and after I do the needed repairs to get it operational, I'd like to do the EFB and other mods described here. However, I cannot locate the final schematic (version C?) of the mods. Is it still posted somewhere that I can access? Thanks so much for any assistance.
 
Ignore my request, I just found the new red/green schematic from Luis (a little bit above on this page)! Thanks so much!
 
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