Inner Groove Distortion...

[WopOnTour]

So, I think for the money, the MLa is a pretty safe bet. Obviously, make sure you get it aligned with the headshell as closely as nyou can. Good luck with it.

Alignment with the headshell is not neccessarily a good thing.In fact it can often be the worst thing you can do (depending on the arm design) and CAN result in an incorrect offset angle, poor tracking and increased distortion. It's the alignment with the arm's arc and playing surface that matters. Bad alignment can result not only in bad sound but also results in accelerated wear in the stylus and LP groove damamge.
You should use some sort of protractor to get correct alignment.

The link below is a generic one for a typical straight 9" (228.6mm) arm from Feel The Music dot com with null points set at 70 and 127mm. You should be able to "land" your stylus on the null point target dot (without moving the turntable) and resulting in the cartridge staying in alignment with the guidelines.I beleive this one is based on an SME arm, so by measuring your own arm you can create more accurate null ponts for YOUR arm using a Baerwald or Loefgren calculation (or a spreadsheet that simplifies these) that you can download at Vinyl engine or FTM here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/protractor2.pdf (hit REFRESH if the link wont work OR copy and paste into your browser)

WopOnTour
Note whe you print this make sure you dont have "fit to page" selected so the dimensions are correct

 

[hakaplan]

Alignment with the headshell is not neccessarily a good thing.In fact it can often be the worst thing you can do (depending on the arm design) and CAN result in an incorrect offset angle, poor tracking and increased distortion. It's the alignment with the arm's arc and playing surface that matters. Bad alignment can result not only in bad sound but also results in accelerated wear in the stylus and LP groove damamge.
You should use some sort of protractor to get correct alignment.

The link below is a generic one for a typical 9" arm from Feel The Music dot com with null points set at 70 and 127mm. You should be able to "land" your stylus on the null point target dot (without moving the turntable) and resulting in the cartridge staying in alignment with the guidelines.I beleive this one is based on a Rega arm, so by measuring your own arm you can create more accurate null ponts for YOUR arm using a Baerwald or Loefgren calculation (or a spreadsheet that simplifies these) that you can download at Vinyl engine or FTM here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/protractor2.pdf (hit REFRESH if the link wont work OR copy and paste into your browser)

WopOnTour
Note whe you print this make sure you dont have "fit to page" selected so the dimensions are correct

No, sorry, that does not apply to all turntables. Pioneer used geometry close to Stevenson and its alignment technique, as I described with my diagram earlier in this thread, produces that result. If he tries to use Baerwald or Loefgren or ETM with this headshell he will run out of slot room and drive himself crazy.

 

[hakaplan]

It is possible that you are not aligning it correctly according to my diagram. If you want to double check, go to vinylengine.com and download the Stevenson protractor and see if your cartridge position coincides with the Stevenson null points.

 

[WopOnTour]

No, sorry, that does not apply to all turntables. Pioneer used geometry close to Stevenson and its alignment technique, as I described with my diagram earlier in this thread, produces that result. If he tries to use Baerwald or Loefgren or ETM with this headshell he will run out of slot room and drive himself crazy.

Ahhh Stevenson, never used it...
Sorry I missed exactly what you were saying in your post. So the Pioneers have an ajustable "pivot" to adjust the arm to headshell angle then? (besides heashell slotting?) Or are they just an ultra long (10") fixed straight arm? (I've seen some old Garrards with an adustable pivot (see photo) and wondered how the heck they were ever aligned.)
What represents the upper reference point in your diagram? A fixed mark on the arm?? Does it run out of slot room at the back or front?

Interesting Thanks
WOT

EDIT: So I found the data on the Pioneer S40 arm and it's 221mm, so what exactly is preventing the use of Baerwald or Loefgren? An odd (shallow) headshell angle? Excessive overhang? (for the 221mm arm) I mean I've heard of issues using B&L with some "S" arms such as those used on the Technics...

 

[synclavier82]

It is possible that you are not aligning it correctly according to my diagram. If you want to double check, go to vinylengine.com and download the Stevenson protractor and see if your cartridge position coincides with the Stevenson null points.

Funny you should reply to this now. I was just over at Vinyl Engine looking for a protractor for my SL-1200 M3D when I learned that Technics tables don't use the Baerwald scale... and that I would have to offset my cartridge to get it to line up. That's more than I bargained for.

I thought that if I just got my stylus point to line up as close as possible with the edge of the Technics overhang tool I would be good enough. But, then I got nervous after reading these last few replies... So, if I want to double check, is there a protractor I could download that won't require me to offset my cartridge?

I would totally pay someone good money to come to my apartment and set this thing up. Lol.

 

[davidk5]

It still sounds like an alignment issue since it happens on all of your albums.
Bad alignment and vintage heavy metal bliss do not mix
I'll try to find a protractor to help

In the meantime...
Here's what was on my TT tonight
Needless to say we were into it

WopOnTour

Wop ! Nice choices on the Vinyl , i have had Krokus Headhunter on my table all week & also Motorhead "another perfect day " , i had bought some of the motorhead cd re-issues that were remastered what total utter crap ! made me egt my turntable fored up again , Motorhead never sounded so good :thmbsp:

 

[davidk5]

No cartridge will sound right unless it is properly aligned. Here is the alignment for the Pioneer straight arms. Keep the headshell square with the cartridge. (The front of the cartridge should be parallel with the front of the headshell.)

Hakaplan , is this standard setup for most cartridges ? i just installed a shure/realistic rxt-4 , got a new needle for it & i'm running it on a realistic lab- 395 table , should the end of the catridge line-up with the end of the headshell ? & how do i know the needle is lined up proper ? thanks for any info .

 

[hakaplan]

Funny you should reply to this now. I was just over at Vinyl Engine looking for a protractor for my SL-1200 M3D when I learned that Technics tables don't use the Baerwald scale... and that I would have to offset my cartridge to get it to line up. That's more than I bargained for.

I thought that if I just got my stylus point to line up as close as possible with the edge of the Technics overhang tool I would be good enough. But, then I got nervous after reading these last few replies... So, if I want to double check, is there a protractor I could download that won't require me to offset my cartridge?

I would totally pay someone good money to come to my apartment and set this thing up. Lol.

Okay, don't panic. Null points are the two places on the record where the cantilever is tangent to the groove. Baerwald, Loefgren, Stevenson and others experimented to see where they thought the best points should be to provide the best overall compromise in the least distortion across the record. The Japanese manufacturers used points close to Stevenson. As long as you are lined up with one of these, you're fine. It makes sense to use the Technics points because a) it's fast and easy and b) that's what they designed the table around.

Virtually all Japanese manufacturers designed their tables so that you keep the cartridge square in the headshell. Then if you set the stylus tip at the specified position, it defines the manufacturers arm length and overhang. The headshell angle defines the offset angle. These are the variables that determine the geometry of the turntable. This may sound confusing, but trust me, use the gauge and don't worry about what others are saying.

 

[hakaplan]

Hakaplan , is this standard setup for most cartridges ? i just installed a shure/realistic rxt-4 , got a new needle for it & i'm running it on a realistic lab- 395 table , should the end of the catridge line-up with the end of the headshell ? & how do i know the needle is lined up proper ? thanks for any info .

No. First of all, this is the setup for Pioneer straight arm turntables only. Second, the cartridge does not line up with the end of the headshell. It is PARALLEL with the end of the headshell, which is a check to make sure that it is seating square. I do not know the distance for the stylus to the end of the headshell for the Realistic turntables. You would use the Stevenson protractor, keep the cartridge square, use the inner point, rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel with the lines on the protractor, then move the cartridge forward or back until the stylus tip lines up with the null point.

 

[hakaplan]

Ahhh Stevenson, never used it...
Sorry I missed exactly what you were saying in your post. So the Pioneers have an ajustable "pivot" to adjust the arm to headshell angle then? (besides heashell slotting?) Or are they just an ultra long (10") fixed straight arm? (I've seen some old Garrards with an adustable pivot (see photo) and wondered how the heck they were ever aligned.)
What represents the upper reference point in your diagram? A fixed mark on the arm?? Does it run out of slot room at the back or front?

Interesting Thanks
WOT

EDIT: So I found the data on the Pioneer S40 arm and it's 221mm, so what exactly is preventing the use of Baerwald or Loefgren? An odd (shallow) headshell angle? Excessive overhang? (for the 221mm arm) I mean I've heard of issues using B&L with some "S" arms such as those used on the Technics...

Okay, the three variables in determining geometry are mounting distance (pivot to spindle), effective arm length and offset angle. The MD is fixed. The manufacturer chooses the null points. They don't necessarily have to coincide with any known protractor, but the Japanese mfrs used points that were close to Stevenson. The choice of points dictates the arm length (221 in this case) and the offset angle, which they designed to be the same as the headshell angle. That's why they say to make the cartridge square with the headshell. Most of the time the cartridge ends up somewhere in the middle of the slots.

The two null points are basically the two solutions to the Side-Side-Angle triangle formula. If you change a Stevenson table to Baerwald or Loefgren, you are changing the third leg of the triangle, therefore the arm length and offset angle must change. The arm length will now be greater than 221mm. Most of time this will push the cartridge forward beyond the limitation of the slots. The cartridge will also have to be skewed out of square with the headshell. If you have slot room in the headshell, you can do it, but for most users it is just so much easier to use what the mfr had in mind.

You won't have enough room in these straight arm headshells. But on s-arms, by using a Technics headshell, which is longer and has slots farther forward than most other Japanese s-arm shells, you can do Baerwald or Loefgren if you want. And some users choose to.

 

[D.E.K]

Here's a couple of pictures of the turntable I am talking about. I am on my way to dl the Stevenson.

 

[D.E.K]

I downloaded the Stevenson protractor though I don't know how to use it. I believe I place it on the platter with the "use a pin to make a hole' being at the center (on the shaft) of the turntable. Then?

 

[hakaplan]

Rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel to the lines of the inner point. When that is lined up, the stylus tip should be on the inner point or very close to it.

 

[synclavier82]

Ever since I mounted my cartridge on Tuesday, I've been obsessing over whether or not I should attempt to make an adjustment. The right screw is ever-so-slightly further back than the left screw. It is incredibly close, however. In fact, sometimes it doesn't even look like there's anything uneven about them. My concern is that if I loosen those screws and try to make this minute adjustment, I'll only end up making things worse. That's how close this thing is.

Now, when I listen to a good, clean record, I really can't hear any inner groove distortion at all. And, as near as I can tell, both the left and right channels sound about the same, volume wise. Is this any indication that I'm close enough on alignment?

 

[D.E.K]

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.

 

[synclavier82]

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.

You know what I would do? I would keep that old table and only use it for your thrashed vinyl. Assuming you have the space for it, of course. I just got my turntable about a week ago and I thought I would be dumping my cheap Audio Tehcnica AT50 ($80 at Best Buy), but now I think I'm going to hang onto it and use it when I want to play something that isn't in very good shape. My copy of Dire Straight's Brothers in Arms, for example, has a massive warp in it. I just realized it yesterday while I was listening to Money for Nothing. So, rather than continue to play it on my nice cartridge, I think I'll use the AT50 for records like this.

 

[hakaplan]

I've done the alignment. Originally, it was pretty close anyway. So I didn't do much playing with it. Things are the same however. Same IGD etc. This turntable has to go before I put my foot through it. It's a $30 junk anyway. I decided to look for a real quality turntable with a real good cartridge which I will play really good quality vinyl on.

You know, I looked over this entire thread and not once did you mention what cartridge you are using, where you got it, how old it is, whether it is a new or old stylus. This turntable may not be an award winner, but I assure you it is not junk. What you paid has no bearing on its quality. People here have scored TOTL vintage turntables for $30. It is possible that some of your records have inner groove damage, but it is also quite possible that the stylus is bad.

First tell us about the existing cartridge and stylus. That may be the whole problem.

 

[Doug G.]

I agree with Howard. I bet the cotton-pickin' needle is worn out.

Doug

 

[davidk5]

No. First of all, this is the setup for Pioneer straight arm turntables only. Second, the cartridge does not line up with the end of the headshell. It is PARALLEL with the end of the headshell, which is a check to make sure that it is seating square. I do not know the distance for the stylus to the end of the headshell for the Realistic turntables. You would use the Stevenson protractor, keep the cartridge square, use the inner point, rotate the platter and move the arm until the cartridge is parallel with the lines on the protractor, then move the cartridge forward or back until the stylus tip lines up with the null point.

Thank you so much for all that information , I really appreciate it .

 

[D.E.K]

That's a good idea sync.