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Is a Crossover needed for full range woofers?

Replacing woofers on my speakers soon. I was hoping to bypass the cheap tweeters in them as the Dayton Audio full range drivers I have in mind have a frequency response from 40Hz to 25,000Hz. Is it possible for me to simply delete the crossover and just wire the driver directly to the speaker terminals, which are sturdy binding posts? The speakers boxes are 3/4 inch MDF with a rear port and have about 2 cubic feet inside each, which should be okay for these drivers. The impedance is 8 ohms which is correct also.
 
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Sure, you can.
Why would you think that you couldn't?

a couple of caveats off the top of my head:

* Is the box size and tuning appropriate to the parameters of the FR driver you want to use?
* Does the FR driver require either baffle step correction or a Zobel network "for best results"?
 
I will admit, I have no familiarity with Dayton, so since these are going to replace the low frequency driver, I would have to assume these are probably 5.25"-8" drivers? If so, are they coaxial?
 
Dayton is Parts Express's house brand. Generally pretty decent hardware, e.g., the "Dayton" XO capacitors are widely reputed to be Bennic OEM and are pretty good -- and quite good for the $, I'd opine.

There are some extended range and full range drivers being sold under the Dayton brand, including a couple of mildly sophisticated ones. Not inexpensive, but not outrageous, either.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pc68-4-2-1-2-full-range-poly-cone-driver--295-150 (this one's 4 ohm)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...-low-profile-full-range-driver-4-ohm--295-348 (this one's 4 ohm)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ps180-8-6-1-2-point-source-full-range-neo-driver--295-344
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ps220-8-8-point-source-full-range-neo-driver--295-346

295-344_HR_0.jpg
 
Judging by the specs listed on the PS180 series, I can only assume this is a coaxial speaker even though the spec sheet doesn't indicate this - which is why I asked. I'm not familiar with ANY single 5.25" driver that would produce this response if it did not have a hi-frequency transducer built in. This brings me back to your original question, and yes, if this is a coaxial speaker, producing that response level, then no worries about disconnecting your existing tweeter. I just got a little concerned whil I was thinking this was only a single driver producing that response.
 
That's most definitely not coaxial, it's got a whizzer cone. 25kHz is probably - 10dB at 0 degrees on axis, during a solar eclipse, with the prevailing winds are at zero. I mean to say, it's really not likely that driver actually has useful output up that high - but who cares? It will probably sound better full range, than it would married to a tweeter through a crossover it isn't designed to work with.

Do confirm the box size is appropriate before dropping it in though. (I used to use box plot 3.0, I'm sure something more modern is out there which does the same thing)
 
Dayton is Parts Express's house brand. Generally pretty decent hardware, e.g., the "Dayton" XO capacitors are widely reputed to be Bennic OEM and are pretty good -- and quite good for the $, I'd opine.

There are some extended range and full range drivers being sold under the Dayton brand, including a couple of mildly sophisticated ones. Not inexpensive, but not outrageous, either.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pc68-4-2-1-2-full-range-poly-cone-driver--295-150 (this one's 4 ohm)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...-low-profile-full-range-driver-4-ohm--295-348 (this one's 4 ohm)
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ps180-8-6-1-2-point-source-full-range-neo-driver--295-344
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ps220-8-8-point-source-full-range-neo-driver--295-346

295-344_HR_0.jpg
So is parts express the owner of Dayton?
 
That's most definitely not coaxial, it's got a whizzer cone. 25kHz is probably - 10dB at 0 degrees on axis, during a solar eclipse, with the prevailing winds are at zero.

Maxhifi, I concur, but when Mr. MHardy sent me the links, and I review the response graph, I could only assume this was a 2-way driver, because, as you say, there would be nothing useful in the upper high frequency range, hence my comment. So, I'm not sure what to make of this speaker if its a single driver; I've never seen a single driver produce a response curve such like that. I can only assume that if this is a single driver, there may be more to this response curve/test/parameters than meets the eye. I would love to know.

Back to the question at hand, hearing is very subjective matter MHardy, and ones approach is predicated on this along with application, however, there is a reason sound is divided into three key areas - bass, mid-range, and high frequencies, with each section placing its own unique demands and requirements of the drivers physical properties required to produce those sounds. Hence the difference between the physical structure of a transducer designed to move 20 times a second vs. one designed to move 20,000 times a second; a single driver cannot produce each faithfully. If trying to produce accurate sound, having the proper transducers is required, but, if your application is such that your monitoring yourself on-stage, maybe your playing the guitar and need to hear yourself, the accuracy is not as critical and many times, full range drivers are employed as a result. In fact, several of the Dayton speakers are designed for this "monitor" application as stated on the website.

So, in closing, you can certainly disconnect the tweeters and see how these full range drivers sound, if you like, then great. If not, then I would look at the response graph and determine exactly where the bandwidth drops below the +/- 3db area as this will likely be where your tweeter will need to begin it's output. With a properly sized capacitor and coil, you can easily create a nice 12-18db hi-pass filter for the tweeter that's already installed and it should work fine.

Again, these are my opinions and I'm sure others will have plenty. Good luck!
 
The whizzer cone acts as a secondary radiator for the higher frequencies. The driver is, in a very technical sense, a two-way driver with a mechanical (not electrical) crossover. In the past, this was sometimes "explained" in the driver literature (e.g., the Electrovoice twincone drivers of the 1950s through early 1980s).

The cost of a twincone extended-range driver is typically in the quality of the treble (many if not most twincone designs tend towards a certain "tizziness" in the treble) and limited treble dispersion. The phase plugs used in some/better twincone drivers (including the titular Daytons) can help in both regards.

What a fullrange (extended range) driver can do, within its limitations, is deliver a remarkable "stereo image" to a listening 'sweet spot' at the apex of the output of the two drivers. A high-sensitivity fullrange driver, without the power-wasting addition of the passive components of an electrical crossover network, may also enable the use of low-power amplifiers, which can offer very different presentation of reproduced sound than do the monster-power amplifiers required for low-sensitivity loudspeakers.

Probably worth noting the special case of the Lowther twincones, which as I understand it, actually use a subsection of the voicecoil to drive the whizzer, even though everything is electrically and mechanically connected in them. Lowthers are quintessential 'fullrange' drivers, and they're capable of sounding amazing or horrible depending on multiple factors. I am not a huge fan of Lowthers, but they've been around for something like 8 decades, so one cannot exactly overlook them in a fullrange discussion ;)


pm8Front.jpg
 
Well it appears you have thought through this very well. We all attach ourselves to different technologies and I would not impune any for theirs. My opinion is strictly based on what makes sense to me, but that doesn't mean it's correct. I simply see no way, whizzer cone of not, that a single driver can faithfully reproduce music accurately. I do agree with the point-source approach and the resulting coaxial designs to accommodate this. I believe many are used in recording studios like Tanoy monitors, but again, these are typically true coaxial designs. The good news is that it's easily testing in the application your working with; install the driver and disconnect the tweeter - you should know instantly whether it's something you like or would prefer to add a tweeter. I would have a very difficult time assigning myself to the philosophy that the loss and difference in amplification required would be so great as to avoid the use of a high frequency driver. Again, I point towards the response graph - it's easy to see where the response becomes irradict, indicating difficulty in this region.
 
Well it appears you have thought through this very well. We all attach ourselves to different technologies and I would not impune any for theirs. My opinion is strictly based on what makes sense to me, but that doesn't mean it's correct. I simply see no way, whizzer cone of not, that a single driver can faithfully reproduce music accurately. I do agree with the point-source approach and the resulting coaxial designs to accommodate this. I believe many are used in recording studios like Tanoy monitors, but again, these are typically true coaxial designs. The good news is that it's easily testing in the application your working with; install the driver and disconnect the tweeter - you should know instantly whether it's something you like or would prefer to add a tweeter. I would have a very difficult time assigning myself to the philosophy that the loss and difference in amplification required would be so great as to avoid the use of a high frequency driver. Again, I point towards the response graph - it's easy to see where the response becomes irradict, indicating difficulty in this region.

Can talk about it all day, but the proof is in the pudding, to use an old cliché. I am running old Goodmans full range (whizzer equipped), 12 inch speakers from the early 1950s right now, on an open baffle, and am very pleased with the natural reproduction. Their high end no doubt falls off significantly earlier than the Dayton driver shown above.

The full range speaker thing is definitely a specialist pursuit, but it's fun, and the results can be much better than the ragged measurements would suggest. In that graph above, the high frequency performance is very obviously ragged off axis because the frequency being reproduced has a shorter wavelength than the diameter of the driver. It does suggest beamy low performance sound, but I would really reserve drawing conclusions until after trying it.
 
but I would really reserve drawing conclusions until after trying it

Absolutely! It's the first I've heard of people pursuing this type of approach as an enthusiast; maybe I should get out more! :biggrin: It's interesting though and I wasn't aware that this approach was pursued by some enthusiasts. I don't know anyone that employs this design but maybe I'll get an opportunity to audition something like this one day. At any rate, great discussion and very informative!
 
Absolutely! It's the first I've heard of people pursuing this type of approach as an enthusiast; maybe I should get out more! :biggrin: It's interesting though and I wasn't aware that this approach was pursued by some enthusiasts. I don't know anyone that employs this design but maybe I'll get an opportunity to audition something like this one day. At any rate, great discussion and very informative!

If you're curious google "fostex full range speaker" and see what comes up. Usually it's people who are into tube amps who are attracted to this sort of speaker, because they make an easy load for the amplifier. It's certainly something which seems counterintuitive until you try it.
 
If you're curious google "fostex full range speaker" and see what comes up.

or better yet, look for Lowther drivers and empathetic enclosure designs...

e.g.,
cs_amps11.png

https://www.passdiy.com/project/amp...e-amplifiers-and-sensitive-full-range-drivers

These are augmented FRs (with open baffle "sub"woofers), based on electrodynamic Lowther variants -- and they were pretty excellent sounding driven by single ended amplifiers using the rather rare/expensive "50" direct heated triode power output tubes.

DSC_5143 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
 
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Full disclosure: my 'real' hifi loudspeakers don't use FR drivers, but I literally grew up with fullrange driver loudspeakers (EV Wolverine LS-12 12" twincones) and still a) keep a few around and b) like to dabble sometimes.

DSC_3316 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(hey, that's no vacuum tube amplifier!) ;)

DSCN5289 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

P1020270 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

P1030332 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

DSC_7144 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(hey, that one's soiled state, too!) ;)
 
Thank you for the replies everyone. I am interested in the Dayton PS-220 8 inch drivers. My only concern is I will be using a Carver M1.0t amplifier that puts out 200 watts RMS into 8 ohm speakers... these Daytons are rates at 40 watts max power because they are very efficient. I hope by using this amp I don't cook these...
 
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