Is a subwoofer worth using with vinyl?

[catman]

G'day all, as I've mentioned in another thread recently I've been trying to eliminate a hum loop on my main vinyl listening set up, and I've had moderate success, but it occured to me this afternoon, why use a subwoofer at all with vinyl?

In all honesty I can't really hear much of a difference with most vinyl records with the subwoofer switched on or off, so why bother? My (bass reflex or ported) bookshelf satellite speakers on stands have quite reasonable bass down to around 75 hertz or thereabouts, so is there really much to gain by using an active subwoofer down to 35 hertz? :scratch2:

Years ago I recall going to a hi fi demonstration with a LP-12 turntable, a good preamp/ amplifier and smallish Moudant-Short loudspeakers. It was a very satisfying set up to listen to and those speakers would not have reproduced the lowest octave or so of bass, but neither I or the other listeners in the audience missed that low bass.

I know hi fi talks about a 20 hertz to 20 KHz bandwidth, but is there really that much audio energy below 75 hertz in music, for example. My DIY vinyl preamp incorporates excellent filtering below 20 Hertz, so am I really missing much in the 20 to 80 Hertz range? Any thoughts? Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[lini]

Felix: I guess that would depend on what you're listening to - and of course also on whether the sub is well integrated into the system in general ('cause unless the "satellites" are all too meagre, for my taste no subwoofer is better than a badly matched/adjusted subwoofer...). E.g. in a big church pipe organ concert you might miss the low bass, for an a cappella singer group most probably rather not...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[GuyK]

Felix: I guess that would depend on what you're listening to - and of course also on whether the sub is well integrated into the system in general ('cause unless the "satellites" are all too meagre, for my taste no subwoofer is better than a badly matched/adjusted subwoofer...). E.g. in a big church pipe organ concert you might miss the low bass, for an a cappella singer group most probably rather not...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Beat me to it. For me, it depends entirely upon the type of music being played. The lowest freq. for a typical pipe organ is around 16 hz, the lowest A on a standard piano is about 28 hz, the lowest note on standard 4 string bass is 41 hz. Going up only 1 octave doubles the frequency, and your pretty close to the75 hz rolloff you note. I don't think much besides symphonic music gets this low, and even then not terribly often; though when it does, it is usually important to the piece and is missed if not reproduced.

If the sub is well integrated, I think the satellites can operate in a range they are often better suited to, and this allows an improvement in how they can sound as well. So the overall system may sound better, and not just have an extended bass response.

 

[spiralfool]

For me, a sub brings more realism to my vinyl and cds, especially in recreating the "space" of a recording. The type and frequency range of the material doesn't really matter. I have recordings of lute and recorders that don't get very low musically, but you can sure hear the "low notes" of the hall they were recording in when the sub is engaged. It makes the image pretty realistic. Similarly with vocal music; no bass in the music but lots of bass in the venue.

 

[MWalt]

I agree with Manfred. I also like them whether I am using small monitors or fullsize speakers. There are not many speakers out there that capture the full range of sound. That said I use two subs and I really spent a lot of time with placement and getting the seamless integration that is critical when employing subwoofers.

 

[Duckzilla]

I like to use my subs with everything. However, a good sub shouldn't add bass, but rather just let you hear bass that is actually in the recording, correct?

 

[HiFiCanada]

Years ago I recall going to a hi fi demonstration with a LP-12 turntable, a good preamp/ amplifier and smallish Moudant-Short loudspeakers. It was a very satisfying set up to listen to and those speakers would not have reproduced the lowest octave or so of bass, but neither I or the other listeners in the audience missed that low bass.

I know hi fi talks about a 20 hertz to 20 KHz bandwidth, but is there really that much audio energy below 75 hertz in music, for example. My DIY vinyl preamp incorporates excellent filtering below 20 Hertz, so am I really missing much in the 20 to 80 Hertz range? Any thoughts? Regards, Felix aka catman.

I find that a large sub puts the icing on the cake, so to speak. I have listeners drop over occasionally and they really comment on the extremely low non distorted bass that the 18 in subs can deliver. I am a pipe organ fan, so losing a sub, really puts a damper on the music.
But then again, it depends on what type of music, you listen to, but even with music that does not have any low bass notes, I still miss the sub, I think that it has something to do with the harmonics of music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic

 

[beatcomber]

My speakers, a pair of Rega R1 bookshelves, are accurate from the top down to about 60hz, where there is a steep drop off. That's where my powered sub takes over, giving me a full-range system.

My amp is a 20wpc vintage tube amp, and having a solid-state powered sub gives me the best of both worlds. The tubes give me that nice silky top and holographic midrange, and the sub replaces the smooshy tube bass with a tighter bottom. I get overall more volume, too, since the 20 tube watts are not being eaten up trying to pump out bass - the powered sub does the work instead.

 

[whoaru99]

I like to use my subs with everything. However, a good sub shouldn't add bass, but rather just let you hear bass that is actually in the recording, correct?

Yes and no. IMO, no sub adds (in terms of creates) anything that isn't already there in the source, except maybe unless the sub has some sort of harmonic synthesiser (a la DBX 120x type of thing) but certainly some subs do it better than others.

 

[oldenuff]

I remember when I bought my first sub (Paradigm Servo 15), I was amazed at the content that I had been missing before. Admittedly the speakers I was using at the time were a little bass shy (Klipsch La Scala), but since then it has proven to be an asset with every speaker I have owned, from my diminutive Mission 780's to the La Scalas. When it comes to a sub bigger is always better...:thmbsp:

 

[Karma16]

HI Feliz,
I have had dual bi-amped subs continuously in my system since 1972 when subs were rare. I think this fact tells you my answer to your question. I love bass. I especially love deep bass.

Let's define some terms:

I split the bass range into two sub-ranges. The overall bass range is about 100 Hz to subsonic, say, less than 20 Hz. Upper bass is from 100 Hz (somewhat arbitrary) to about 40 Hz. This is not really subwoofer country. It's just woofer stuff. Any "full range" speaker should be able to handle this. Deep bass is bass from 40 Hz to sub sonic (20 Hz down). Below 40 Hz, is where you find true full range speakers such as the B&W 801's. But even the 801's can't go below 30 Hz with power. Below 40 Hz is true subwoofer territory.

But the way you asked your question poses an interesting scenario. Vinyl recordings, in general, tends to not have much deep bass. In many cases this is an intentional decision by the recording engineers because the vast majority of the record playing systems could not track low frequency, high power content grooves. So, with most pop albums the bass is rolled off.

But, there are many exceptions. Classical music has always had recordings with great bass. Jazz also had much low frequency content. Electronic music had some of the best low bass content. If you have ever heard Direct to Disc recordings you will hear great examples of wonderful, powerful low bass. Even some rock and roll had good low bass. Check out The Who.

Getting back to your question, most certainly between your lower limit of 75 Hz and 40 Hz there is a vast wealth of bass you are not hearing with all genres of music. Even the piano goes at least an octave below your limit of 75 Hz. Many instruments do.

I don't know why you are asking this question. For me, great low bass has always been a goal. Why? Because I love great bass. The best and largest pipe organs have pipes that produce 16 Hz notes that are totally awesome. My system can reproduce those notes. They shake the windows and ash trays. Unfortunately, great bass is expensive and very hard to get. So, the fact that you don't insist on a system that can go well below 75 Hz tells me you don't really like (need!) deep bass. If you did you would have it and this question would not be necessary.

While we are on this subject, deep bass really came into its own with CD's. With this technology, recording engineers not longer felt it necessary to tone down bass to the lowest common denominator. Now, we can hear great bass routinely. By no coincidence, this is also the time when subwoofers strongly came onto the scene.

And finally, high fidelity sound is the science and art of the reproduction of the entire human audible range. This means, typically, 20 Hz to 20 KHz. We should not settle for less.

 

[JonL]

I've got La Scalas, which are supposed to go down to around 50Hz. I listen to LPs about 90% of the time. I've been fooling with a Velodyne subwoofer for a while, and I can say that it's kind of finicky getting it dialed in to sound natural, but when it's right it is a definite improvement. Acoustic bass comes to life, kick drums have a more realistic "thud," and having the solid foundation seems to make the whole rest of the spectrum sound more relaxed in a way. Hard to put it into words.

Note that I'm not a big bass freak. I actually dislike how much the bass is amplified in the mix at most amplified concerts these days. I try to set up the sub so I feel that the bass guitar or acoustic bass sounds balanced throughout its range (which includes where it crosses to the La Scalas), and balanced with respect to the rest of the instruments. Too much on the sub, and you can hear the lower strings overemphasized and the kick drum starts to sound like a teenager's Honda. Too little, and it sounds like it's not on. It's right on that edge where it sounds right to me.

 

[Karma16]

I've got La Scalas, which are supposed to go down to around 50Hz. I listen to LPs about 90% of the time. I've been fooling with a Velodyne subwoofer for a while, and I can say that it's kind of finicky getting it dialed in to sound natural, but when it's right it is a definite improvement. Acoustic bass comes to life, kick drums have a more realistic "thud," and having the solid foundation seems to make the whole rest of the spectrum sound more relaxed in a way. Hard to put it into words.

Note that I'm not a big bass freak. I actually dislike how much the bass is amplified in the mix at most amplified concerts these days. I try to set up the sub so I feel that the bass guitar or acoustic bass sounds balanced throughout its range (which includes where it crosses to the La Scalas), and balanced with respect to the rest of the instruments. Too much on the sub, and you can hear the lower strings overemphasized and the kick drum starts to sound like a teenager's Honda. Too little, and it sounds like it's not on. It's right on that edge where it sounds right to me.

HI JonL,
Yep, getting the sub to integrate properly with the main speakers is something of an art form. Plus, some mains, because of their bass response curves, will never integrate well.

Keep at it, you'll get it right.

The most common mistake new subwoofer users make is having the subs gain too high. Can't blame them. They want to hear what they spent their good money on. But, with time, the knowledgeable user with dial it back looking for the most natural blend.

In general, I feel most users have the subs levels set too high. I have heard many systems with subs that I could not live with.

The best way to get a properly integrated system is to select a main system specifically for use with a sub. For most folks, the subs are an after thought. This can lead to many integration problems.

Sparky

 

[BrocLuno]

I think it depends so much on the room and the speakers. My smallish office space (where my used vinyl preview system is) has plenty of power and a pair of Infinity RS5000. Not much need for more bass there

 

[jeremyjustic]

I like to run my sub just loud enough to hear it. just to add that little bit of kick to the deep bass. I also was a bass player for many years so I am particular about bass sound and presentation.

I guess the bottom line is , if you dont think you need it ( or like it) then turn it off for a week and see if you miss it. sometimes you dont realize how much something effects the sound until you take it out of the system. if after a week you still dont miss it, sell it and buy some more vinyl!

 

[catman]

G'day all, thanks for the thoughts. Increasingly I don't think that my active subwoofer is properly integrated with the satellites as the bass has never sounded right to me, either too heavy or nothing at way, despite fiddling with the level/ phasing switch.

According to the specifications my satellite speakers have usable bass down to 50 Hertz (I'm glad that I kept those old paper specs). More to think about. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[catman]

G'day all, for anybody interested, these are my satellite speakers. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[MWalt]

Those look pretty nice. I prefer bigger speakers over monitors, but I do have a pair of Rega RS-1 monitors that sound great. I flip flop them with my Snells. I have found that you really have to spend a lot of time moving the sub(s) around to find the "sweet spot". Play around with it until your subs "disappear".

 

[catman]

G'day mate, those speakers are quite old now but I still think they're pretty good.

Out of the large range of speakers that they had at that hi fi store I liked these the best, even compared to larger models!

They've served me very well over the years. :yes: I'll leave the subwoofer out of circuit for a while and form some opinions! Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[wlmill]

I don't think this has been mentioned. Another way to integrate a subwoofer in to a system, is to place the subwoofer in your main listening chair and turn on some bass heavy music. Here is the strange part, crawl around on the floor, until you find a place where the bass is strongest. If you can, that is where your subwoofer should be placed.

I use room correction software in my system and I have to say it makes vinyl playback sound great. It does an accurate job of dialing the subwoofer in properly. It is so good, I can't tell the subwoofer is in the room. The sub sounds like it is a part of the speakers and this is how it should sound.