Is a subwoofer worth using with vinyl?

[Edriz]

Personally, I always thought that if you 'hear' the sub, it's too high in the mix. I was always under the impression that a sub should be felt, not heard.

 

[gusten]

I must admit I know little about subs, but do they normally really contribute much below 50Hz? I know some that do, but I see that more as an exception, but I could be wrong.
gusten

 

[sxty8goats]

Felix,

I'm in the 'got to have a sub w/ satellites' group. I have a few systems up and running 1 with passives (Cheep for me, Cambridge Soundworks stuff) and two with powered. The only system I don't use a sub with has a pair of floor standing speakers that go low, rated down to 36 Hz. Even these would benefit from a sub but I just don' have the room. They share space with a separate 5.1 surround system which includes another receiver, full speaker set and a sub. Personally I prefer any set up to go down to at least 40Hz.

My speakers, a pair of Rega R1 bookshelves, are accurate from the top down to about 60hz, where there is a steep drop off. That's where my powered sub takes over, giving me a full-range system.

My amp is a 20wpc vintage tube amp, and having a solid-state powered sub gives me the best of both worlds. The tubes give me that nice silky top and holographic midrange, and the sub replaces the smooshy tube bass with a tighter bottom. I get overall more volume, too, since the 20 tube watts are not being eaten up trying to pump out bass - the powered sub does the work instead.

Glen,

How are you separating the base from your signal? Is there a crossover between the preamp and the tube amp? I'm using a set of M&L Motion 4's at work that only reach down to @ 70hz and a sub to fill in the rest. With the older pioneer sx-3700 I run speaker line level to the sub and then out of the sub to the speakers. But there is no real cross over in the sub and the amp still is sending a full range signal through the speakers. I assume that the M&L's crossover rolls off anything below 70hz. It would be nice to have a pre between that allows some sort of bass management and doesn't send anything below 70hz to the amp.

 

[MWalt]

That's another issue. I let my satellites run full range and the powered subs pick up the lower stuff. How many use their sub that way? I am always curious how others integrate sub(s) into their system. Do you cross the lows over from the speakers or let them run full range? I am willing to try anything in regards to better sound and integration of the subwoofers.

 

[marc mc]

That's another issue. I let my satellites run full range and the powered subs pick up the lower stuff. How many use their sub that way? I am always curious how others integrate sub(s) into their system. Do you cross the lows over from the speakers or let them run full range? I am willing to try anything in regards to better sound and integration of the subwoofers.

I only run the Delta's full range because they are so unusual. On all my other systems I run everything active. I use a few speakers with passive crossovers as mains but they never see anything under 70 cycles. I will place them on bass cabs and run another pair of subs with them.

The OP is unaware of what his speakers would sound like with a bass cab under them instead of speaker stands. I will guarantee that if he heard them as the mains on an active set up he would never listen to them as they now are again. And the next thread would be titled " I'm an active convert".

Marc mc

 

[beatcomber]

Glen,

How are you separating the base from your signal? Is there a crossover between the preamp and the tube amp? I'm using a set of M&L Motion 4's at work that only reach down to @ 70hz and a sub to fill in the rest. With the older pioneer sx-3700 I run speaker line level to the sub and then out of the sub to the speakers. But there is no real cross over in the sub and the amp still is sending a full range signal through the speakers. I assume that the M&L's crossover rolls off anything below 70hz. It would be nice to have a pre between that allows some sort of bass management and doesn't send anything below 70hz to the amp.

My sub, an RBH MS-8.1, has a crossover control.

 

[sxty8goats]

My sub, an RBH MS-8.1, has a crossover control.

Nice. Mine is a cheep Sony. For low volume fill, it is good enough. May look at upgrading.

 

[beatcomber]

Nice. Mine is a cheep Sony. For low volume fill, it is good enough. May look at upgrading.

The RBH is fairly inexpensive ($450 or so) and does a nice job of keeping up with music.

 

[MWalt]

I only run the Delta's full range because they are so unusual. On all my other systems I run everything active. I use a few speakers with passive crossovers as mains but they never see anything under 70 cycles. I will place them on bass cabs and run another pair of subs with them.

The OP is unaware of what his speakers would sound like with a bass cab under them instead of speaker stands. I will guarantee that if he heard them as the mains on an active set up he would never listen to them as they now are again. And the next thread would be titled " I'm an active convert".

Marc mc

Marc, please explain your set up to me. I am guessing that you have an external electronic crossove that is ran from an amp(s) to one or more passive subs. Very interesting.

As of now I run two powered subs, one a 10" for the low lows and the other an 8" for the mid lows. I swap out a pair of fairly big Snell Acoustics type E II's and some Rega RS-1 monitors at the present. I am always looking at ways to improve...:scratch2:

 

[sxty8goats]

The RBH is fairly inexpensive ($450 or so) and does a nice job of keeping up with music.

I keep talking myself out of the BIC Formula F-12 that is on Parts Express for $220. It gets great reviews for being a duel purpose Music / Theater sub. I have 2 sony's, one that is easily 12 years old. They both still chug along nicely and remain smooth and deep when hit with low sine wave sounding dub bass. (NIN Down In It) Makes it hard to spend more money.

 

[Russellc]

I would recommend a second sub. Catman has a really nice pair of monitors that seem to be a lot like my Rega RS-1's in terms of size and low end production. I like the little Rega's for their airyness and pinpoint imaging as well as sweet sound. I found that I have to use a minimum of two subs to optimize the sound; one sub crossed over much higher than my second sub to make the over all sound more full. I really need another sub. Between that and placement, monitors or any speaker for that matter can be enhanced nicely with subs whether you play analog or digital.

I would go one step further and suggest at least 3 be used. I dont care what you are using or what software is tuning it, a single sub is never going to sound natural. By fiddling, you may get acceptable sound at the listening position, but it will be a compromise.

Room nodes just happen, and you are going to have places in the room where bass is over blown, and places where it is absent. There is no way to position a single sub to properly cover everywhere.

The best I have seen use at least three, (See Wayne's recommendations with his subs over on the Pi Speakers site/forum) This can at least keep these room nodes under control.

Now the forgoing doesnt address another major sub woofer problem, that of properly integrating the sub with the rest of the system, both electrically as well as acoustically. Using at least three also helps here, but doesnt really address the electrical (crossover) part. I really like the ideas put forth by Nelson Pass on crossovers and his articles on how he uses crossovers to integrate bass into the system.

Its a lot of work to "properly" (and expense!) integrate sub(s) is the point. Also, this is a hobby where tastes vary a lot, as well as what you are willing to "like." I have heard systems with subs that the owner had poured over adjusting phase and so forth, and frankly the result didnt sound natural in the least. More coherency without the subs is many times the case,which sounds like what Catman is experiencing here.

Interesting topic with a lot of varying levels of experience and tastes to say the least!

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

I recall my first "real" diy speakers. It was a satellite system, 2 way with 6 inch mid woof and 1 inch tweet, and was combined with a large (3 cu ft) subwoofer box which used a dual voice coil 12 inch sub driver. No matter what I did it sounded horrible....many liked it for its "party thump" but I had already been spoiled by more accurate speakers. It used a passive crossover that allegedly brought the sub in around 200 Hz.....I'm sure this was one of the major(of many) obstacles before this system! I couldnt afford another amp and electronic crossover at the time, which wouldnt have cured it anyway. Once I learned a little more, I built a better cross over for the satellites and dropped the sub...much better.

That was 20 years ago. After that, and getting out of school, i lived in apts and built "mini monitor" type speakers that didnt have powerful low bass, like the JM Labs Micron I cloned, and the Diappolito designed Aria 5. Today I still use those 2, but in the main system the big E waves are using 15 inch JBL 2235H bass drivers and subs are not necessary.

Russellc

 

[hifitommy]

hi catman,

it would be nice to list your system either in your sig line or profile. i have mine referenced to my asylum inmate systems link in my profile here. that simplifies the process.

getting back to the issue at hand: subwoofer setup is quite important for realism. it can be done using a cd like 'flight of the cosmic hippo' by bela fleck and the flecktones or there are many methods you can easily research online in various locations.

setting the cutoff frequency can be as important as the level, and phase should be set at the better sounding of the two choices.

location is another important factor. all adjustments should be done in small increments once you get close. listen for a while with each change. once done, the sub will be impervious to the overall sound and not draw attention to itself.

even music with no apparent bass will take on a realism not previously there. imaging will improve. when real bass is present, there will be no doubt about it.

it matters not whether you play vinyl or CD or the TV. some records have been mixed to sound fat (or phat) such as the black keys-el camino (more than a little too fat) or raising sand by robert plant and alison krause (slightly fat as preferred by the producer tbone walker).

your subsonic filter will prevent the woofers from pumping and the sound will be just fine.

i still suggest finding the cause of the feedback you get and curing it so a filter isn't necessary. my friend had big IMFs flat to 16Hz and when the subsonic filter in the GAS Thoebe preamp was implemented, you could hear a loss of musicality, even at its lowest frequency setting.

he had already dealt with the LF feedback situation. the true impact and heft of the music is somewhat truncated using a filter.

a wall mount for the tt is sometimes the only choice if you don't have cement slab floors.

 

[jamset]

does it matter that i use for stereo listening a subwoofer that was intended for HT ?

 

[michaelhigh]

I like to use my subs with everything. However, a good sub shouldn't add bass, but rather just let you hear bass that is actually in the recording, correct?

Correct. You can't amplify bass that isn't present in the recording. Kind of like, "if a tree fell in the forest and no one was there, did it make a sound? Sound is of course depenent on ears and a brain to detect and perceive it subjectively, and it can or cannot be measured objectively. If you're nether an objectivist or a subjectivist that makes you a centrist, one who takes both ideals into the equation. For turntables, isolation is the key to keep that unsightly (but audible) howl out of the aural picture.

 

[rolltide]

does it matter that i use for stereo listening a subwoofer that was intended for HT ?

As long as it sounds good in your system. I'm not really sure how to qualify the phrase "intended for HT" other then possibly being more entry level, but not necessarily. I think most subwoofers are intended for HT given that a sub is mandatory for HT. Better subwoofers will be considered more musical because they can keep up with a steady rhythm vs. the occasional explosion, but as long as you're satisfied with what its doing. I will say that a sub that you're intending for music use should probably be dialed in to your system differently then one for music.

 

[jamset]

As long as it sounds good in your system. I'm not really sure how to qualify the phrase "intended for HT" other then possibly being more entry level, but not necessarily. I think most subwoofers are intended for HT given that a sub is mandatory for HT. Better subwoofers will be considered more musical because they can keep up with a steady rhythm vs. the occasional explosion, but as long as you're satisfied with what its doing. I will say that a sub that you're intending for music use should probably be dialed in to your system differently then one for music.

thanks!

i have attached pictures of my activesub, maybe you can check it out and tell me what do you think? i know it all depends on my ears but i would like to have other opinions...

it is an AR HD510

 

[slate1]

I haven't read through the whole thread, so, my apologies if this point has already been made.

Years ago, I worked on integrating a Velodyne Optimum-8 sub with my NHT Classic Three's. Now, it's important to note that another persons measurements with the exact same gear, set up exactly the same, could yield markedly different results because the major factor in bass management is the room; and, frankly, my room sucks!

But, my point is, that subs are almost always going to impact other areas of the musical spectrum. As you can see from my measurement graph that I've attached (featuring multiple volume and phase settings), increasing the bass output below 60hz or so often times had the effect of sucking out the midbass in the 60-200hz range.

I finally decided that what my ears where telling me, that it sounded best without the sub, was the route to go. Again, in another room, perhaps it would have worked out better. As in everything audio related what works in one system may sound like crap in another.

 

[TJLitt]

I guess I'm fortunate. With the speakers I have, which go to around 35Hz pretty accurately, I have no need for a sub(room isn't large enough for a 25Hz wave to do much other than break up). A frequent comment I get when friends listen to my system is "where is the sub hidden?", as the bass is felt as much as heard.
And, to address Catman's original question, yes, IMHO lower octave bass reproduction is noticible when playing vinyl, every bit as much as any other source.

 

[hifitommy]

i never change the level of my sub from music to movies nor do i think that should be necessary. it makes not one whit of difference what the sub is 'intended for'.

if you are having suckout problems with a sub, it may be in the wrong place in the room. also, there should be no suckout if the sub comes on below the lowest frequency of your satellites. lots of experimentation with xover points, phase, and level PLUS the location of the sub AND position of the satellites.

this is also a case in point to use STEREO subwoofing. much has been written on these subjects and of course should be read BUT experimentation is the best method for best results.

the sense of room, the solidity of the sound, and even imaging are improved by using a sub. even the perceived top end frequencies gets better with a sub. once you have heard a properly set up system with a good sub, its hard to go back.