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Is "fully balanced" just a hype?

Folks, I always swith from balanced to unbalanced mode in 402 when I change XLR to RCA and vice versa so it's not that. I also compared exactly the same brand of IC (Cardas Golden Reference) XLR and RCA so it's not the issue either. Sure the XLR sounds much cleaner but RCA has bigger soundstage and lots of air. It simply sounds bigger and more natural. However even with RCA the improvement over 6900 is far from what I expected and I'm allready thinking about downsizing back. Btw, I rather prefered XLR over RCA between 301 and 6900 so I'm talking mostly about IC between pre and power amp here.
 
McTwins.......I really like the way you have used the diffusion panels and reflection panel on the walls. The attention to acoustic details most certainly has reaped huge rewards for you. Your room is spectacular.
 
Thanks everybody!!!:banana:

I dont want to take away Antons thread here.

Anton;
I also have Cardas golden ref and I had mix setup XLR and RCA(XLR to MC252
and RCA to MC275 in mono) and its not such a HUGE different only more dynamic with XLR. My ears says so.

Remember, it demands several weeks to break in Cardas cable and to notice any different. My experience.

Thanks
 
I have run biamp MC252 with mine speaker 250 watts per modul including powergaurds light on for severel hours, hasent broken anything yet:music:.

Ever tried driving with a foot on the breaks and a foot on the accelerator at the same time? It gets you to the final destination as well.

I am glad it works for you.:scratch2:
 
I find it incredible that someone hears a difference between an xlr cable and a rca cable.

It can only be the perceived difference in gain that you get out of xlr

there isn't more information in the wire. I believe you can hear difference's in different cables and quality cables and I use only xlr Nordost Frey's, but If I used the same quality Nordost Frey RCA there would be absolutely no difference.

And for those who think so, why pray tell ?? There can't be any reason...
 
I find it incredible that someone hears a difference between an xlr cable and a rca cable.
...
And for those who think so, why pray tell ?? There can't be any reason...

The fact that there is a difference is not surprising because there is extra circuitry involved internally to conver bal to unbal (and viceversa). Anything you add to the signal path makes a difference which, apparently, is audible to some people.

Also keep in mind that the the things that differentiates cables are their geometry, insulation, terminator, etc. and RCA and XLRs are very different in this respect.

Alberto
 
As I understand it, it's not a matter of the XLR cable carrying *more* information... it's that the design of the cable allows noise or interference to be filtered out, resulting in a cleaner signal at the destination. From Wikipedia:

A typical balanced cable contains two identical wires, which are twisted together and then wrapped with a third conductor (foil or braid) that acts as a shield.

The term "balanced" comes from the method of connecting each wire to identical impedances at source and load. This means that much of the electromagnetic interference will induce an equal noise voltage in each wire. Since the amplifier at the far end measures the difference in voltage between the two signal lines, noise that is identical on both wires is rejected. The noise received in the second, inverted line is applied against the first, upright signal, and cancels it out when the two signals are subtracted.

I find it incredible that someone hears a difference between an xlr cable and a rca cable.

It can only be the perceived difference in gain that you get out of xlr

there isn't more information in the wire. I believe you can hear difference's in different cables and quality cables and I use only xlr Nordost Frey's, but If I used the same quality Nordost Frey RCA there would be absolutely no difference.

And for those who think so, why pray tell ?? There can't be any reason...
 
Here are my personal guidelines, for your consideration:
1. Some sources' outputs are inherently balanced -- MC phono cartridges, and D to A converters are two fairly universal examples. So if you have balanced inputs on your preamp, you should try to use a phono preamp with balanced ins/outs and if your DAC has balanced outs (most good ones do now), you should use them (rather than the DAC's RCA single-ended outputs.) In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if one is using such sources, it almost behooves you to employ a preamp with balanced inputs, (my opinion of course.) In both cases (but especially with MC cartridges) the balanced out-to-in connection will provide a signal strength usually around twice that of a single-ended connection, resulting in a commensurately lower noise floor (blacker background.) Also, with both of these aforementioned sources, the balanced outputs are the 'natural' outputs, and it is the single ended outputs that require additional circuitry.
2. For the preamp/amp connection, you simply have to decide which tail will wag the dog. If both units have balanced outs/in respectively, then use them. As someone already mentioned, whether or not the actual circuit design of the components themselves is balanced or not is more important for signal processing/amplification but the type of ins/out the manufacturer provides (or not) will determine your choice of interconnect. In other words, if either one (but not both) of your preamp or amp has only single-ended connectors, then you will be limited by that component to single-ended interconnects.
3. One valid (non-neurotic) reason for wanting balanced IC's between preamp and amp is wanting to keep the speaker cables short (especially when using tube amps -- to get the most out of their limited damping capability.) Often, this means long IC's (more than 10 - 12 feet) between the preamp near the listening position, and the amp(s) near the speakers. I've used up to 30 foot cables both BAL and SE between preamp and amp and the only obvious difference was the amp didn't have to 'work as hard' to produce the same SPL when using the BAL. In other words, the sonic character remains the same, but (depending on the amp) the distortion may be reduced with BAL.
4. A word about Cardas (or any other finely stranded) cable over long lengths: the accumulated capacitance (in the case of single-ended IC's) or accumulated inductance (in the case of balanced IC's) could have a profound effect on the frequency balance at the amp end.
5. A word about the minimum one-to-ten impedance ratio convention between preamp and amp: usually it's not a problem with today's equipment, but if you use adapters external to the component in order to use an XLR cable from a SE preamp output to an XLR amp input, it could (as in no. 4) have a profound effect on the frequency balance at the amp end.
 
I didn't say "rip off" though in many way I feel like it. I bought MC402 (for much more $$ than I could pay for any old not fully balanced Mac amp) mostly for "fully balanced design" only to fnd out that it sounds so much better with RCA connection that's it's not even funny...If anyone wonders if not-fully-balanced C46 is too blame I tried C500T before and had the same crappy results though the same C500T made the speakers dissapear connected via RCA into 6900. My obsession with "fully balanced" components is over I hope that experience of mine will sober some of us still ready to blow big bucks for "fully balanced" myth...

I simply find it hard to believe that moving up the McIntosh ladder to a FULLY BALANCED C500T, MCD-301, and MC-402 could provide (as you describe) "crappy results." Neither would I ever describe that system as a "rip-off."

I haven't heard your system, but there has got to be something wrong other then the equipment choice, because I know all of those pieces are great. Like others have said, perhaps it just sounds so radically different, that you at first dislike it. If that isnt the problem, then either something isn't hooked up right, or something is broken.
 
I ran a balanced Yamaha pro series P2200 using an unbalanced Yamaha pre-amp. Sounded very good to me. I had rca on one end.

I always thought the main benefit of XLR was not getting the big pops when disconnecting anything while being turned on.
 
Anton,

Most prefer the balanced cables as some have stated. McIntosh designs for balanced first on all the new models. If you don't like the balanced and prefer the unbalanced cables, go for it. It is your system.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Folks, I always swith from balanced to unbalanced mode in 402 when I change XLR to RCA and vice versa so it's not that. I also compared exactly the same brand of IC (Cardas Golden Reference) XLR and RCA so it's not the issue either. Sure the XLR sounds much cleaner but RCA has bigger soundstage and lots of air. It simply sounds bigger and more natural. However even with RCA the improvement over 6900 is far from what I expected and I'm allready thinking about downsizing back. Btw, I rather prefered XLR over RCA between 301 and 6900 so I'm talking mostly about IC between pre and power amp here.


Anton,

i am 100% on the same page with you brother. Your experience with XLR vs RCA mirrors my own. The difference in the SOUND in my system was also significant and unmistakable.

Just two weeks ago, I took home 2 well run-in loaner pair's of Transparent Ultra MM XLR interconnects hooked em up 301--->2300 and 2300---->402. The increase in detail was amazing....presumably related to the significant drop in the noise floor....black as spades. At first it was beguiling, my Mc gear had been taken to yet another level (one I didnt think was possible). The bass was considerably tighter, more textured. Further listening however revealed that the detail was in fact too much detail (cleaner as you put it)...i had lost my smoothness and musicality (naturalness as you put it) that Mc brought to my room that attracted me to McIntosh so much in the first place (and prompted me to shell out 12k for pre/amp). The bass improved in many ways, tho seemed leaner with less weight. My 301 now sounded sooo digital. the lifeblood of my system had been sucked out somehow in the detail.

I swapped my Transparent Ultra RCA's back in. ahhh...thats it! The soundstage expanded! the vocals were bigger, the room was bigger and the bass while not as textured was warm and full. my foot began tapping again and the music flowed. However, I did miss that black black background and the spotlight it brought to the microdynamics.

i can certainly see how so many on this forum prefer the sound of the XLRs. I miss the amazing detail at times, but i like to listen, at times, for several hours and my McIntosh smoothness is mandatory for me. Also, i have a small room and listen in the near field. This I believe increases my sensitivity to detail, if it sounds analytical, its out.

as with so many things in this hobby, there are pluses and minuses. musical trade-offs. best case, i would prefer to have both types of cables at my disposal RCA and XLR as they both bring something different to the table....if there is ever a c500 in my future, i will certainly revisit this debate...

Jason
 
Perhaps Anton has simply discovered the elephant in the room.

I find it incredible that someone hears a difference between an xlr cable and a rca cable.

It can only be the perceived difference in gain that you get out of xlr

there isn't more information in the wire. I believe you can hear difference's in different cables and quality cables and I use only xlr Nordost Frey's, but If I used the same quality Nordost Frey RCA there would be absolutely no difference.

And for those who think so, why pray tell ?? There can't be any reason...

I had exactly the same experience with single ended and the MC402 as Anton. Balanced was much duller and rather lifeless even though the midrange and bass was good. Using single ended was noticably more open but still not nearly as good as my previous amp before it expired. For a long time I had the same reaction as most on this forum to the point where I began to doubt myself. After eight months of frustration, all the while hoping it would open up, I replaced the MC402 and immediately came to realize what a fantastic CD player the MCD201 really is and how transparent and musical the C2300 pre-amp is. Now balanced connections are better by far. The only piece ever changed in this set-up was this amp. I've since spent hundreds on new SACDs and vinyl. The music is back big time.
 
A lot of the back and forth here is with many different brands of cables. Everyone of course has their favorite brand. If we start with the very best electrical conductor as used inside McIntosh components, plain old copper wire, and compare balanced VS unbalanced copper interconnects, I think the majority will always chose balanced.
Once we get into complex cable types this may not hold as the balanced types will be similar in sound where the unbalanced will have much more distinct sound.
It is not balanced VS unbalanced being argued, it is this brand of interconnect VS the other brand.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Ron.....would you or McIntosh like to elaborate on which copper cable, be it balanced or unbalanced, to use with our Mac equipment? Please name some names, be it Audioquest,Blue Jeans,etc. etc.


Inquiring minds like to know....:yes:.........thanks!
 
A lot of the back and forth here is with many different brands of cables. Everyone of course has their favorite brand. If we start with the very best electrical conductor as used inside McIntosh components, plain old copper wire, and compare balanced VS unbalanced copper interconnects, I think the majority will always chose balanced.
Once we get into complex cable types this may not hold as the balanced types will be similar in sound where the unbalanced will have much more distinct sound.
It is not balanced VS unbalanced being argued, it is this brand of interconnect VS the other brand.

Thanks,
Ron-C

May be partially true.

still though, sounds like Anton's subjective findings are the same as my subjective findings and we are using different brand cables. Im sure our respective cables do sound different, yet we are drawing similar conclusions when used in very similar Mc systems with SF speakers.

Most probably points to XLR vs bal connections and NOT cable brands...
 
A lot of the back and forth here is with many different brands of cables. Everyone of course has their favorite brand. If we start with the very best electrical conductor as used inside McIntosh components, plain old copper wire, and compare balanced VS unbalanced copper interconnects, I think the majority will always chose balanced.
Once we get into complex cable types this may not hold as the balanced types will be similar in sound where the unbalanced will have much more distinct sound.
It is not balanced VS unbalanced being argued, it is this brand of interconnect VS the other brand.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Since all decent balanced cables sound similar (agreed) and should thus be preferred if one wants to hear the amps true nature why do we find the MC402 unbalanced connection more satisfying? I suspect there is more variation between the balanced and unbalanced circuits within the equipment than there is in three feet of connecting copper wires of either type.
 
Seems to me that the only answer here is to use what sounds best to you!:yes:

Although I do not understand how a MC402 and/or a C2300/C500/C46/C220/C1000 and/or a MCD201/MCD301/MCD500 with a decent pair of speakers could sound bad because you used any combination of RCA/XLR interconnects:scratch2:

I have used both on my system 201 rca to C2300 rca to Mc402 and 201 xlr to C2300 xlr to Mc402 to my SF Grand Piano speakers I have settled on the XLR but could switch back to RCA and not think twice about the change.
Well maybe not:D
 
In the fully balanced models there is less circuitry when used in the balanced mode and more when used unbalanced. Again you can use whatever you prefer but the unbalanced cables will tend to have more sonic character than unbalanced.
Silver is slightly more conductive than copper and they both trump gold. Gold looks nice on a connector and does not tend to tarnish.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
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