Is "fully balanced" just a hype?

[Jackmac]

Timely thread. Did a similar experiment with my 352 this weekend. History. Purchased the 352, C39 and MCD205 after discovering McIntosh sound with a 2105. Used unbalanced IC's between CD player and C39 and balanced between C39 and 352. Cables. Unbalanced cables were much older high end Monsters (I know) and balanced are homemade Neutrik connectors soldered to high end recording studio line level cabling. Ever since hooking this system up several months ago I was disappointed with the sound quality. I kinda felt like the original poster about his 402. Collapsed soundstage, no depth, unruly bass etc... Anyways, finally went out and got some mid level Audioquest unbalanced cables for CD to C39 since reading threads about IC's changing the system. Wow. There was the culprit. Tone, soundstage, depth, refined bass response etc... was there. I felt like the components were finally able to communicate with each other and display their true colors.

I decided to try a change in my cabling between C39 and 352 given my results above. Decided to try unbalanced between pre and amp with Audioquest and found my DIY balanced cables were actually quite good. I didn't experience the amazing difference compared to replacing those terrible Monsters. The differences I experienced was the unbalanced connection had very similar tone, soundstage etc.. but I felt like the music was shouting at me and was harder to pick out smaller details (more lively like described above). The balanced seemed to have more depth and clarity without harshness. Both ways sounded good but I just preferred the balanced presentation.

All of my cables are copper.

 

[misterdoggy1]

I would like to "restate" my statement.....

First I ONLY use XLR balanced, thru a balanced system. And if you have a completely balanced system then it would be a shame not to use balanced XLR cables.

However, In a system that has both, then rca or xlr would give you the same results using the same quality cable ie nordost frey in RCA against nordost frey XLR.

But in a system at the top like MCD 500 to a C1000 to a 1.2KW where everything is built on both balanced interior and unbalanced then its plain silly not to use it... In this case there probably is no question that there is a difference.

I wasn't comparing balanced interior system vs unbalanced, but ONLY balanced cable versus unbalanced cable. Cable not system...

 

[PHC1]

In the fully balanced models there is less circuitry when used in the balanced mode and more when used unbalanced. Again you can use whatever you prefer but the unbalanced cables will tend to have more sonic character than unbalanced.
Silver is slightly more conductive than copper and they both trump gold. Gold looks nice on a connector and does not tend to tarnish.

Thanks,
Ron-C

Bingo!

 

[titanstats]

Seems to me XLR is just flavour-of-the-month -- not like it's new technology or anything. Once a couple of companies start adding "pro" features to their amps, it's hard not to do the same. Unless your cable lengths are huge, I don't think it'll improve anything much. Just MHO.

 

[Uberbrown]

Seems to me XLR is just flavour-of-the-month -- not like it's new technology or anything. Once a couple of companies start adding "pro" features to their amps, it's hard not to do the same. Unless your cable lengths are huge, I don't think it'll improve anything much. Just MHO.

The trademark for the XLR connector was registered in 1958, and has been used almost that long. I think this excludes it from being labeled a "flavor of the month."

 

[whoaru99]

Ron.....would you or McIntosh like to elaborate on which copper cable, be it balanced or unbalanced, to use with our Mac equipment? Please name some names, be it Audioquest,Blue Jeans,etc. etc.


Inquiring minds like to know....:yes:.........thanks!

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think you already received your answer. :scratch2:

...plain old copper wire...

 

[whoaru99]

The trademark for the XLR connector was registered in 1958, and has been used almost that long. I think this excludes it from being labeled a "flavor of the month."

In an absolute reference yes, but the context was that many mfg of single-ended gear are starting to tack on balanced outputs...thus flavor of the month. Much the same way it went with toroidal transformers a while back.

In the case of adding balanced outputs to single-ended circuits, there is actually more "stuff" in the signal path using the balanced vs the unbalanced inputs/outputs. So, to me, it is at least conceiveable that the balanced output in those cases could be of lesser quality than the unbalanced output. However, if long cable run and noise is a big factor, then the additional circuits of balanced probably will offset or better the net unbalanced result.

 

[Uberbrown]

In an absolute reference yes, but the context was that many mfg of single-ended gear are starting to tack on balanced outputs...thus flavor of the month. Much the same way it went with toroidal transformers a while back.

WHat manufacturers are just now "starting to tack on balanced outputs?" Most of the brands I have followed in the past 5-10 years have had balanced connections, so I suppose my original response we due to a rejection of the the premise that the audio industry has just begun to "tack on" balanced connections.

Since this is a McIntosh forum, and the thread is entirely based on the MC-402, C-500, and Mcd-301, I was not thinking we were discussing the entire audio industry. If so this thread needs to be moved.

Speaking of McIntosh, all I know is that the MC-2000 was made 8 years ago (almost 9) and had balanced inputs.

 

[whoaru99]

They've becoming fairly common on (relatively) inexpensive gear throughout the HT industry.

I mentioned toroidal transformers, bi-wire/bi-amp speaker terminals are another example of previously "high end" features that have trickled down the food chain.

Not saying good or bad, or without merit; just saying it's happening.

 

[Uberbrown]

They've becoming fairly common on (relatively) inexpensive gear throughout the HT industry.

I mentioned toroidal transformers, bi-wire/bi-amp speaker terminals are another example of previously "high end" features that have trickled down the food chain.

Not saying good or bad, or without merit; just saying it's happening.

I agree that you can now find xlr connections on 2nd generation and less expensive gear than previously, but I would think that this is an example of trickle down technology, and not an industry wide movement which was begun in the past 3-6 months. More manufacturers are offering xlr connectors than before, which should either speak to the demand for them from the consumer or their superiority in some applications. Either way, yes more products have xlr connectors now than before, but I disagree that their presence is a wave which has just hit the industry.

 

[ron-c]

Which cable does McIntosh recommend and use? All of them.

Balanced cables have two advantages. The connection is very positive, symmetrical and contacts the ground first and last.

Regardless of the balanced cable length, be it one foot or 100, you will always have a MINIMUM of -40 Db noise rejection. This is a scientific fact not some silly wire politics.
This will only be important if you have radiated electronic noise in your environment. So if you do not have cell phones, computers, flat screen TVs, electricity off the grid, neighbors within a 1/2 mile or so and do not live near any major city or populations, unbalanced cables will be fine.

thanks,
Ron-C

 

[misterdoggy1]

So if you do not have cell phones, computers, flat screen TVs, electricity off the grid, neighbors within a 1/2 mile or so and do not live near any major city or populations, unbalanced cables will be fine.
thanks,
Ron-C

Wow Ron, I have all those things

But I also have only balanced connections

 

[anton]

HOLY @#%#!!!!!!! I found out where the problem was! It was the damned filter that was killing the sound. :thumbsdn:I connected my 402 straight to the wall long ago but somehow I never tried to connect the pre straight into the wall. I always thought that filter improves both the source and the preamp. Was I wrong! When I plugged it straight bypassing the filter the music came alive, became easy on the ears and started to flow. The soundstage improved dramatically. Now the balanced connections sounds awesome without all the harshness and digital-ness that I was there before. I was so dissapointred with my upgrade before that I actualy put both C46 and 402 for sale feeling that they don't give me any substantial improvement over 6900. I retract my former pissed-off comments and proudly say that my faith in McIntosh engineering is fully restored.

P.S. My lesson learned and an advice to all fellow audiophiles - DON'T PLUG YOUR SEPARATES INTO ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE WALL!:nono: It kills them - my filter costs $1800 so it's not a crappy one.

P.S. I haven't tried RCA connections in my new situation yet though...

 

[McTwins]

Hi
Glad you solved it:thmbsp:
Never doubt Mcintosh POWER
Thanks

 

[David]

Anton...
I'm curious...What $1800 powerline filter were you using?

 

[Jackmac]

Anton. Very glad you have found the problem. I can completely identify with your situation. Now the late night listening sessions can really begin:yes:

 

[KeninDC]

I'm glad you figured this one out, Mr. Anton. I've been watching this thread and have balanced inputs on the back of my Krell (Krell suggests plugging their gear straight into the outlet and only using their supplied power cords).

My digital source is older and I'm considering a balanced replacement to take advantage of what I thought (and this thread confirms) balanced connections have to offer.

Ken

 

[j3brow]

Awesome Anton. Happy Listening.

 

[anton]

I'm glad you figured this one out, Mr. Anton. I've been watching this thread and have balanced inputs on the back of my Krell (Krell suggests plugging their gear straight into the outlet and only using their supplied power cords).

My digital source is older and I'm considering a balanced replacement to take advantage of what I thought (and this thread confirms) balanced connections have to offer.

Ken

Do Krell supply high quality power cords? Never heard about it! I know Naim recommends the same but when I auditioned Naim gear my aftermarket cord killed the Naim stock one.

 

[anton]

Folks, thanx for your ! I feel like a mountain just fell off my shoulders - I had a severe depression and audiohile neurosia since I got my 402 and 46. I felt it was the worst mistake I ever made in my hi-fi adventures. Now when it finally sounds right (even my wife said it now sounds awesome) I'm truly back in the game!:thmbsp: