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Is "fully balanced" just a hype?

Anton...
I'm curious...What $1800 powerline filter were you using?

David, it's Fisch Reference Line. Works great with sources, plazma and worked real well with 6900. Never thought it would be THE problem with a pre yet it totally murdered the sound of my system. Night and day difference if I ever heard one when I plugged my pre straight to the wall. Now Fisch is not a bad brand my any means - their power cords are superb for example.
 
Balanced cables have two advantages. The connection is very positive, symmetrical and contacts the ground first and last. Regardless of the balanced cable length, be it one foot or 100, you will always have a MINIMUM of -40 Db noise rejection. This is a scientific fact not some silly wire politics.
thanks,
Ron-C

Case closed.
 
Do Krell supply high quality power cords? Never heard about it! I know Naim recommends the same but when I auditioned Naim gear my aftermarket cord killed the Naim stock one.

I'm no cord expert, but the Krell cord sure looks "high quality." By way of example, the cord on my ModWright tube line stage, while hefty, screams for replacement.

I have not researched whether it is OK to replace Krell cords despite what the manual says. I'm sure I'll get to that after I upgrade my digital and analog sources.

Ken
 
In the fully balanced models there is less circuitry when used in the balanced mode and more when used unbalanced.
Ron-C

Ron,

Would it be right to assume that all pre and power amps with Balanced in and outs are fully balanced models?

Thanks
BG
 
P.S. My lesson learned and an advice to all fellow audiophiles - DON'T PLUG YOUR SEPARATES INTO ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE WALL!:nono: It kills them - my filter costs $1800 so it's not a crappy one.
I'll be keeping my RGPC 600s/Pole Pig thank you. I've played around with different configurations carefully over the last year in my system and the results were much more than just subtle. :thmbsp: Not sure what "filter" you were running. :D
 
Leave it to Ron. We now have a new audiophile acronym: SWP (silly wire politics!)

It was so interesting to hear that conditioners were the culprit. I personally dislike them A LOT, and from the least to most expensive without naming names, their inherent design can't help but choke power transfer and thus music dynamics -- this is true regardless the size, capacity, or quality of the parts inside.

That's why everyone is always blown away when they (finally) plug their amp(s) into the wall -- but just because you can hear an obvious difference in the case of amplifiers, don't think that other components with more modest power consumption aren't similarly affected. I know this won't please a lot of people, but IMO conditioners are old technology and NOT the way to go anymore. The three best power grooming strategies/devices, both in order of bang for the buck, and in order of implementation are:

1. Dedicated circuits, remembering to: a.) use one wire size larger than code if outlet is more than 20 feet from panel (to avoid possible voltage drop) b.) If you have BIG amp(s) (>100w/ch) give it/them their own circuit. Ditto if you have a LOT of digital gear (i.e. more than just a CDP ;-) except that won't be necessary if you provide all source/control (front end) gear with balanced power (see 3.)
2a/2b. (In either order but NOT both) would be an isolation transformer(s) OR a power re-generator unit. The former is quite effective if you already get decent power from your utility -- meaning voltage fluctuates not more than 2.5% above or below 120V., no brownouts, line noise or truncated sine waves (you'll need an oscilloscope ;-) Power re-generators are now very efficient (Exactpower leads in that category) and can turn even a non-dedicated circuit in an apartment or condo into a source of nice clean power up to 15A/1500W (for the best Exactpower unit) Isolation transformers are unique in that they also provide worry-free lightening strike protection.
3. Balanced power devices such as those from Exactpower or Equi=Tech do for AC power what balanced interconnects do for audio signals: they provide equal but opposite 60 cycle AC between each plug blade and the old "ground" pin (which is now the new "neutral"!) So any noise on the power line is self-canceling, just as in XLR cables. Since this feature "works" in either direction, it cancels digital hash coming out of your digital components just as easily as it cancels noisy AC going into them :thmbsp:

In my own crappy (apartment) situation, I did manage to find ONE unused 20A circuit (thank you Jesus!) which terminated under the kitchen sink (for a non-existent disposal ;-) I ran a 3 conductor 10AWG umbilical about 20 feet to an Exactpower re-generator between the ML electrostat speakers; it powers them along with the McIntosh MC275, a Logan sub, and (through another short umbilical) an Exactpower balanced power unit for all the front end stuff.

With everything powered up and at a significant volume, the whole system, amp and everything, only draws +/_ 550W! And it's as quiet as an unoccupied chair!
 
Leave it to Ron. We now have a new audiophile acronym: SWP (silly wire politics!)

It was so interesting to hear that conditioners were the culprit. I personally dislike them A LOT, and from the least to most expensive without naming names, their inherent design can't help but choke power transfer and thus music dynamics -- this is true regardless the size, capacity, or quality of the parts inside.

That's why everyone is always blown away when they (finally) plug their amp(s) into the wall -- but just because you can hear an obvious difference in the case of amplifiers, don't think that other components with more modest power consumption aren't similarly affected. I know this won't please a lot of people, but IMO conditioners are old technology and NOT the way to go anymore. The three best power grooming strategies/devices, both in order of bang for the buck, and in order of implementation are:

1. Dedicated circuits, remembering to: a.) use one wire size larger than code if outlet is more than 20 feet from panel (to avoid possible voltage drop) b.) If you have BIG amp(s) (>100w/ch) give it/them their own circuit. Ditto if you have a LOT of digital gear (i.e. more than just a CDP ;-) except that won't be necessary if you provide all source/control (front end) gear with balanced power (see 3.)
2a/2b. (In either order but NOT both) would be an isolation transformer(s) OR a power re-generator unit. The former is quite effective if you already get decent power from your utility -- meaning voltage fluctuates not more than 2.5% above or below 120V., no brownouts, line noise or truncated sine waves (you'll need an oscilloscope ;-) Power re-generators are now very efficient (Exactpower leads in that category) and can turn even a non-dedicated circuit in an apartment or condo into a source of nice clean power up to 15A/1500W (for the best Exactpower unit) Isolation transformers are unique in that they also provide worry-free lightening strike protection.
3. Balanced power devices such as those from Exactpower or Equi=Tech do for AC power what balanced interconnects do for audio signals: they provide equal but opposite 60 cycle AC between each plug blade and the old "ground" pin (which is now the new "neutral"!) So any noise on the power line is self-canceling, just as in XLR cables. Since this feature "works" in either direction, it cancels digital hash coming out of your digital components just as easily as it cancels noisy AC going into them :thmbsp:

In my own crappy (apartment) situation, I did manage to find ONE unused 20A circuit (thank you Jesus!) which terminated under the kitchen sink (for a non-existent disposal ;-) I ran a 3 conductor 10AWG umbilical about 20 feet to an Exactpower re-generator between the ML electrostat speakers; it powers them along with the McIntosh MC275, a Logan sub, and (through another short umbilical) an Exactpower balanced power unit for all the front end stuff.

With everything powered up and at a significant volume, the whole system, amp and everything, only draws +/_ 550W! And it's as quiet as an unoccupied chair!


The Furman IT Reference series offers PF correction for amps AND balanced outlets for source components :thmbsp:

It's the first surge protection/filtering device I've come across that does not limit the sonics of my gear. Not that I can detect anyway(?)
 
When I first received my MX & MC setup, I didn't have my XLR's yet, so I ran it with RCA. I had a hum transmitted thru the speakers, and found that the tv was the source. I knew the tv was the source of the noise (all other units turned off), but it really wasn't noticable, until I amplified it. When I plugged in the XLR's, the noise was gone.
 
When I first received my MX & MC setup, I didn't have my XLR's yet, so I ran it with RCA. I had a hum transmitted thru the speakers, and found that the tv was the source. I knew the tv was the source of the noise (all other uints turned off), but it really wasn't noticable, until I amplified it. When I plugged in the XLR's, the noise was gone.

Likely because the ground loop path was removed from the signal path by getting rid of the unbalanced RCA cable. In the balanced connection the shield is separate from the signal.
 
My whole system is plugged into a panamax unit and I have zero hum or background noise; everything sounds good. I think not having surge protection and/or a conditioner in your hi fi system is a big mistake unless you have a zero deductible on your home owners insurance.
 
My whole system is plugged into a panamax unit and I have zero hum or background noise; everything sounds good. I think not having surge protection and/or a conditioner in your hi fi system is a big mistake unless you have a zero deductible on your home owners insurance.
The kind of "surges" that would damage your equipment are the kind that God throws down from the heavens. They're called 'lightening bolts,' and nothing but complete electrical isolation (or a very very expensive panel unit) will protect your system. You can accomplish this (practically speaking,) only by pulling the plug(s) when you hear thunder, or by using a big isolation transformer(s) as I already mentioned. Anything else is folly -- surge protectors do occasionally save a computer, but for audio, when you need them, they are grossly inadequate. Don't even think about simply turning everything (including your Panamax:D) OFF! God is looking for ground and it matters not to Him whether your system is on or off!

As for the new Furman units, I checked them out already, because I respect their stuff. And that unit is fine for what it is (a conditioner combined with a small balanced power transformer,) but remember: A.) You get what you pay for (including profit to the manufacturer) and B.) Not to be charmed by fancy-sounding features. It's still the same old wine in a brand new bottle. :thmbsp: Of course sometimes, sadly, in audio you don't get what you pay for . . . . . .but you NEVER get more than you pay for! :no:
 
I agree that you can now find xlr connections on 2nd generation and less expensive gear than previously, but I would think that this is an example of trickle down technology, and not an industry wide movement which... More manufacturers are offering xlr connectors than before, which should either speak to the demand for them from the consumer ... Either way, yes more products have xlr connectors now than before, but I disagree that their presence is a wave which has just hit the industry.

Trickle-down technology, though it's been around since 1958? Sure taking a long time for the trickle to happen. I still think it is a flavour of the month thing, though it may have been creeping in over the last 5 years or so. Once a few high-end makers add 'em on, it is hard for others not to. If it was a home audio must have, it would have found its way home many, many years ago, instead of staying in the pro amp domain. Just MHO.
 
I use a TSIpower for EVERYTHING thats next to the fuse boxe

Thats a lot of power.

I also use Transparent Reference Power Cables, they are pricey, but not lack of power flow and shields against interference.
 
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......nothing but complete electrical isolation.........will protect your system. You can accomplish this only by pulling the plug(s) when you hear thunder.......

That's the way I handle 'surge protection' from the 'man upstairs'. When thunderstorms are forecast in this area, the a/v and computer equip are unplugged. I have a PS Audio PPP, but that equip is designed to handle power co surges, not lightening strikes. The general listening audience can choose to play it safe, or roll the dice......................
 
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