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Is There A Thread/Schematic for Putting EFB Into A Scott 7591 Based Unit?

Here is the design. Because I don't have an LK-72 on which to test this circuit, I will call this entire thing "draft" until you build and test it. Both the EFB circuit and the bias/balance circuit must be used as a matched set. Don't try to implement one without the other. It won't work. You must implement both circuits for the amp to function properly.

First the EFB circuit.
Scott LK72 EFB Mod.png

You'll see that this is very similar to Dave G's work on the Fisher 500C, with subtle differences to account for the slightly different voltages used. The trickiest part is the resistor labeled R (shown as 2.4K in the above schematic). You should adjust the size of that resistor until you measure -50V at the junction labeled "-50V". You might need to adjust that resistor up or down in size. I took my best educated guess at what I think is the right size. If you need to error, error on the side of putting a lower voltage (meaning more negative) at that -50V junction.

The master bias adjustment is the 10K pot shown in the schematic. Adjust it until you read -30V on the output. If you want to hard wire -30V output, you can replace that 10K pot with a resistance of (approximately) 4.1K. It's nice to have a master bias adjustment though, so that you can tweak the output bias voltage by a volt or two in either direction to account for hot or cold biasing of tubes, without running out of bias pot rotation in the bias/balance circuit, below. I usually use a small PCB mount trimpot in this position, that I mount right on the same perforation board as the EFB circuit is built on.

Next, the bias/balance circuit:

Scott LK72 Bias-Bal Mod.png

This circuit uses the stock bias/balance pots and offers essentially the same bias and balance swings as the stock circuit. It's also a simpler circuit than the stock circuit. It has a fail-safe mechanism built in that the stock circuit does not, which is if the bias or balance pots ever break, or stop working because of dust or dirt or whatever, the bias voltage will go more negative, sending the output tubes into cutoff or at least run them cooler. In the stock circuit, if the bias or balance pots break, the bias voltage becomes undefined, which is a sure recipe for output tube red plating.

As for the "optimal" quiescent current setting that will minimize distortion at full power output. That setting is probably somewhere in the vicinity of the same value Dave G. found for the Fisher 500C. But I expect it will be a little higher (maybe 10% to 15%) since the screen voltage used on the LK-72 is higher than on the Fisher 500C. That's a guess. The optimal bias setting will need to be determined empirically. I know of no other way to find the optimum setting except through using a spectrum analyzer or THD distortion analyzer.

===

Note neither of these schematics are my design. I adapted them both from Dave G's work. You mentioned you were interested in knowing how to design this, so that you could perhaps do it yourself in the future on an arbitrary PP amp. It's more words than will fit in this post, and each installation is unique. But if you really want to know, I can show you the basic steps.

Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions.
 
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Thank you Don for your time on this.
Very interesting. I do like the fail safe bias ckt!
First question:
I have on hand a STF11N50M2, will that work for your spec'd STF16N50M2?
Jef
 
Yes it will work. The mosfet is dropping only about 20 to 25 volts from drain to source so its major over engineering! But it also means that part of the circuit is very robust.
 
So in the Bias/Balance Ckt above, Note 1 states to remove four resistors. I believe it should be the five X'ed out in these two screen shots. Correct?

Screen Shot 2019-08-12 at 12.08.43 PM.png

Screen Shot 2019-08-12 at 12.08.21 PM.png
 
Good catch, on the bias/balance circuit, I left one resistor off of the remove list. Yes they are the ones you've X'd. There should be 5 total resistors to remove in the bias/balance circuit.

I have updated the schematic in previous post to include the missing 5th resistor to remove.
 
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Parts intermission........
Waiting on Mouser.
I didn't have the 22uF in 500v, had 450v on hand. Needed 36K resistors too.
 
Kudos to Kward for doing an excellent job of adapting the Fisher EFB™ circuits into a Scott amplifier. This approach was possible because the original bias adjustment circuits were completely re-worked to operate from a lower negative voltage source, with builtin protection added in the revised design in case the wiper of the bias or balance control should lift from their tracks -- a very worthwhile move. The other approach would have been to use the rather unique voltage doubler circuit I developed which allows operation of the EFB Control Grid Regulator from enough voltage to allow use of the original Scott bias control circuits. Either approach works just as well, with the latter approach being simpler to install, and the former having the builtin safe guards.

The only comments I would add include:

1. The 270K in the Gate circuit of the Mosfet should be of a 2W rating.

2. Using a 500Ω 5 watt resistor where the 270Ω 5 watt resistor is shown will help reduce needless dissipation in the Mosfet, and also provide greater protection for it.

3. The 1M 1% resistor should be of a 1 watt rating to enhance stability.

Good luck with your project -- let us know how it turns out!

Dave
 
Thanks Dave for your comments.

One question eagle eyed readers might have on the EFB circuit is why with the voltages being so close to the Fisher 500C, is the 10k resistor in between the two bipolar transistors so small at 10k instead of 22k as on the Fisher EFB circuit?

The answer is that this resistor size is somewhat arbitrary. I like to put 1.5 mA idle current through the input transistor. That’s the only reason! Which in this case necessitated a 10k resistor instead of a 22k resistor.

As to the size of the 270 ohm 5 watt resistor, I really wanted mutual conductance curves for the 7591 so I could accurately estimate the screen current at max power for the pair of tubes. Those curves don’t exist (I couldn’t find them) so I did what all enterprising engineers do...I guessed. I didn’t want to guess high and have the mosfet output dip below 415V at max power. But certainly bench testing of the built circuit would have revealed this.
 
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How much voltage overhead is required for the screen regulator portion to do it's job effectively? Just brainstorming for my own future application, trying to think of how to make it work in the least invasive way possible.
 
I shoot for 20 to 25 volts, but it does require a fairly accurate estimation of screen current to target it that closely.
 
ok, I should be able to bump the supply that much without a lot of bother. I don't want to clutter this thread up with it since what I'd be doing is a considerably different design to start wit.
 
Kudos to Kward for doing an excellent job of adapting the Fisher EFB™ circuits into a Scott amplifier. This approach was possible because the original bias adjustment circuits were completely re-worked to operate from a lower negative voltage source, with builtin protection added in the revised design in case the wiper of the bias or balance control should lift from their tracks -- a very worthwhile move. The other approach would have been to use the rather unique voltage doubler circuit I developed which allows operation of the EFB Control Grid Regulator from enough voltage to allow use of the original Scott bias control circuits. Either approach works just as well, with the latter approach being simpler to install, and the former having the builtin safe guards.

Dave, thank you so much for your input on this project!
For those who are unfamiliar with EFB(tm), Dave Gillespie is THE designer of it and it stands for Enhanced Fixed Bias. EFB(tm) will maintain a proper relationship between B+ voltages, screen voltage and bias voltage. So as the B+ varies/sags under load, the screen and bias voltages will be adjusted by EFB(tm) to maintain amplifier distortion at a very low levels. Much lower distortion levels than a stock Scott amplifier will deliver. When implemented properly, EFB(tm), will provide several benefits. Here is an example Dave's work on a Fisher 400 and he explains the many benefits of EFB(tm):
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/modifying-the-fisher-400-with-efb.509090/

Kward has taken Dave's EFB(tm) and tweaked the design to operate in my Scott LK-72.
Additionally, he completely redesigned the bias supply circuit to make it fail-safe with a wide adjustment range capability which allows the amplifier to work with new stock 7591 tubes as well as original USA made types.
So I also owe a big thanks to Kward for his engineering time on this project. I certainly could not have implemented these improvements without him.
Jef
 
Success!
First let me say how impressed I am with Kward's "draft" schematic and instructions. Not everybody can create a perfect set of instructions as Kward did. It's really not very easy with something like this which is fairly complex. I have ten wires coming off the EFB™ ckt board that had to be terminated, correctly. All the notes and instructions made perfect sense allowing for perfect implementation.
Using NOS unmatched Westinghouse 7591's I have the following voltages:
Plate's = 457v
Screen's = 415v
Plate to screen delta = 42v
The four control grids are at -18.27, -19.40, -20.32, -20.30
This is with idle currents all at 35 point something mA's

For resistor "R" I have a 3.3K installed for -50.77v (Desired is -50v per instructions).
The 2.4K got me -52.65v. But, as noted in the instructions, the 2.4K was a educated guess and may need tweaking to get -50v.

With the 2.4K (and -52.65v ) my master bias pot adjusted from -33 to almost -38v and when set for -33v I could get from -18.7 to -26.5v at control grid pin 6 using the normal bias pot.
With the 3.3K (and -50.77v) my master bias pot adjusted from -32.8 to -37.5v and when set for -32.8v I get -18.25 to -26.25v. at pin 6 using the normal bias pot.

I was initially worried the negative bias adjustment range was going to to be too negative to run the Westinghouse 7591's but all is ok with the "master bias" pot. If I was wanting to, how best to get a less negative bias voltage range? Go higher with the "R" resistor?

Pictures and more questions to follow,
Jef
 
As for choosing the best quiescent idle currents, the following thread by the Warren Buffett of the tube world (Dave G), provides some generic suggestions for 7591 based units. Since I don't have a distortion analyzer, would this be a valid guide for me to follow?
I read it as yes......
https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/i...r-800-500-early-version-400-receivers.539265/

Choice 1 says 38mA for max performance.
Choice 2 says 28mA for a nice balance.
Choice 3 for LOW idle current requires some additional determinations.

Jef
 
This LK-72, being a kit, HAD a switch and a pair of rca jacks for setting the bias without needing any test equipment. I removed them both since they would never be used for anything and it was the only available space for a small circuit board. To cover the chassis holes, I used a thin piece of aluminum sheet and secured it using 1/4 inch standoff's which also secure the EFB™ circuit board. The newly added master bias pot is located between the original bias pots which I did drill a hole in the chassis for. As much as I prefer to keep everything as HH Scott made it, I'm not opposed to modifications when the benefits are so great. The lettering on this chassis is SOOOO delicate, I swear! It's been challenging to retain it.
The last page of this assembly booklet is for setting the bias by the original builder (if curious):
http://akdatabase.com/AKview/albums/userpics/10007/HH Scott LK-72B Assembly Manual.pdf

DSC01453.JPG

DSC01452.JPG
 
That looks like excellent work and congratulations on getting the EFB board working! For less negative output change the 68k resistor between the base and collector of the input transistor to a smaller value. A 62k resistor will increase output (make it less negative) by 2.5 volts.
 
Additional info.........
In a conversation I had with Dave G about EFB™ he gave me some pointers for my unit:

A. Be sure to disconnect the screens from the center tap of the chalk resistor. (since they will be powered from the EFB™ board)
B. Move C204 over to the center tap of the chalk resistor.
C. Increase the value of R205 to now make the down stream voltages to the small signal tubes correct now that R205 and the first section of the chalk resistor are no longer powering the screen grids.
D. Power the EFB Screen Grid Regulator from the same point as the CT of the OPTs are fed.

I marked up a screen shot of my unit with the power supply section changes. Other Scott units likely use different component nomenclature but the intent will be the same:

Screen Shot 2019-08-17 at 4.16.50 PM.png

Jef
 
Jef -- Super super job of installation!! And, and a superb job of restoration, too! Your installation also points out why I found it basically impossible to develop a universal EFB board, as each installation is of necessity, physically different.

I know you'll enjoy your Scott tremendously -- congrats on the fine job!

Dave
 
Thank you Dave for the compliments!
I do always appreciate your input.
And I thank you for freely sharing your EFB™ design.
Jef
 
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