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Is there any risk of using a 3 gram tracking force?

DiamondTron

DiamondTron

New Member
So I'm sure this is a heavily debated topic, but I wanted to get some input. :)

I have a JVC QL-A220 turntable from the early 80's, and I just installed a Gemini HDCN-15 cartridge with an Audio Technica stylus. Everything is perfect so far! I have the overhang adjustment nailed down perfectly, and the cantilever looks nice and straight. The only thing I can't stop fiddling with is the tracking force.

So, the recommended tracking force for this cartridge is between 1.5 grams to 3 grams. I started off at 2 grams. I mean, 2 grams was okay. It sounded pretty average, there was some slight sibilance in some places. Then, I thought, why not raise the tracking force to the max?

My turntable is able to track from 0 to 3 grams. So, I slid that counterweight to it's highest position; 3 grams, properly set the anti-skate, and then gently dropped that stylus onto a 2Pac record. My first thought was, HOLY *bleep*! Does vinyl actually sound THIS good?! Keep in mind that I'm a newbie. :D

The sound quality with the tracking force set at 3 grams is SO, SO ACCURATE. I swear, if I played a FLAC file side by side with this turntable, I could not even tell the difference. I played a few records, and the quality was just so warm, clean, and it did not have any amount of sibilance. Heck, I didn't even hear any crackles! Or maybe I did, but I was just too focused on the music, heh.

3 grams, though... What kind of damage is this bound to do in the long run? I'm not really a heavy vinyl listener. But, now that I have this new cartridge, that might change!
 
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DiamondTron said:
So I'm sure this is a heavily debated topic, but I wanted to get some input. :)

I have a JVC QL-A220 turntable from the early 80's, and I just installed a Gemini HDCN-15 cartridge with an Audio Technica stylus. Everything is perfect so far! I have the overhang adjustment nailed down perfectly, and the cantilever looks nice and straight. The only thing I can't stop fiddling with is the tracking force.

So, the recommended tracking force for this cartridge is between 1.5 grams to 3 grams. I started off at 2 grams. I mean, 2 grams was okay. It sounded pretty average, there was some slight sibilance in some places. Then, I thought, why not raise the tracking force to the max?

My turntable is able to track from 0 to 3 grams. So, I slid that counterweight to it's highest position; 3 grams, properly set the anti-skate, and then gently dropped that stylus onto a 2Pac record. My first thought was, HOLY *bleep*! Does vinyl actually sound THIS good?! Keep in mind that I'm a newbie. :D

The sound quality with the tracking force set at 3 grams is SO, SO ACCURATE. I swear, if I played a FLAC file side by side with this turntable, I could not even tell the difference. I played a few records, and the quality was just so warm, clean, and it did not have any amount of sibilance. Heck, I didn't even hear any crackles! Or maybe I did, but I was just too focused on the music, heh.

3 grams, though... What kind of damage is this bound to do in the long run? I'm not really a heavy vinyl listener. But, now that I have this new cartridge, that might change!
Click to expand...

No damage worth worrying about. NOTHING will tear up a record faster than a worn diamond. What is the tip size ? 0.7 ?
 
I have no knowledge of your Table or Cartridge-Sytlus, so perhaps my help will be limited in scope.
If this is the range of the given Cartridge, then I guess such is fair game.

I'd say if you were hearing sibilance at a lighter VTF that this could be referred to as slight mistracking, which is probably a worse thing.

I think general concensus would be the 3 bears analogy, not too light, not too heavy, but just right.

With time and some break in period, you might be able to slightly back off VTF? Many commonly say, heavier VTF, better Bass Response, lighter VTF, better High Frequency Response. Somewhere in the middle, one might find the best of both.
 
DiamondTron said:
Good to know! I believe the tip size is 0.6mm, it's a conical stylus as well.
Click to expand...

That should be fine. If it were a 0.5 mil I would not go over 2.50 grams VTF. I am not familiar with your cartridge. I will look it up.
I see it is an Audio Technica cartridge. What you can do is back off slightly on the tracking force and of course stop when it no longer sounds so good.
 
markd51 said:
I have no knowledge of your Table or Cartridge-Sytlus, so perhaps my help will be limited in scope.
If this is the range of the given Cartridge, then I guess such is fair game.

I'd say if you were hearing sibilance at a lighter VTF that this could be referred to as slight mistracking, which is probably a worse thing.

I think general concensus would be the 3 bears analogy, not too light, not too heavy, but just right.

With time and some break in period, you might be able to slightly back off VTF? Many commonly say, heavier VTF, better Bass Response, lighter VTF, better High Frequency Response. Somewhere in the middle, one might find the best of both.
Click to expand...

Definitely something to consider, thanks! Once I get my hands on a proper gram scale, I'll start backing off the force little by little and see how it sounds from there.
 
markd51 said:
I have no knowledge of your Table or Cartridge-Sytlus, so perhaps my help will be limited in scope.
If this is the range of the given Cartridge, then I guess such is fair game.

I'd say if you were hearing sibilance at a lighter VTF that this could be referred to as slight mistracking, which is probably a worse thing.

I think general concensus would be the 3 bears analogy, not too light, not too heavy, but just right.

With time and some break in period, you might be able to slightly back off VTF? Many commonly say, heavier VTF, better Bass Response, lighter VTF, better High Frequency Response. Somewhere in the middle, one might find the best of both.
Click to expand...

Excellent advice. I totally agree. (Which is unusual. LOL).
 
I dont think he'll make it to 500. Before 400 the highs are fading away and there is sibilance on end of side, at least in my experience with that stylus.
 
I wouldn't be afraid of an unworn conical @ 3 grams at all. I play them regularly on my records. One of my Pickering styli even calls for 4 grams. Hell, I sometimes play records on my school phonos and they track at 5 and almost 6 grams. It doesn't hurt them. Even the crappy styrene 45s which are easily worn don't seem bothered by it. A few of my elliptical styli for my Pickering V15 call for 3 grams. No issues there either, but I wouldn't really want to go higher than that.
 
HTHMAN said:
A conical stylus will actually cause less wear than an elliptical stylus at the same (or even lower) tracking force. The reason is the contact area. The smaller the contact area, the greater the force per square inch. Conical has a larger contact area than other shapes.
Click to expand...

My understanding of stylus shapes all my life suggests you got this backwards - an elliptical provides more contact area than a conical. A conical may be preferred in cases such as worn records (or mono records), but exerts more force per sq. in. than an elliptical.
 
musichal said:
My understanding of stylus shapes all my life suggests you got this backwards - an elliptical provides more contact area than a conical. A conical may be preferred in cases such as worn records (or mono records), but exerts more force per sq. in. than an elliptical.
Click to expand...
You are mistaken, elliptical has the least contact area, then conical, then shibata, then microridge. off the top of my head area is around 20 um for elliptical around 30 for conical depending on shibata cut 46 or more and 60 something for microridge, I have seem slightly different numbers but depends if vinyl distortion is taken into consideration.
AT say 500 hours for a conical 300 hours for an elliptical (due to 30% less contact area of the elliptical) 800 hours for shibata and 1000 hours for ML which is microridge. Looking at the numbers I disagree with the shibata and the ML more like 600 hours and 800 hours tops for ML IMO.
Chris
 
musichal said:
My understanding of stylus shapes all my life suggests you got this backwards - an elliptical provides more contact area than a conical. A conical may be preferred in cases such as worn records (or mono records), but exerts more force per sq. in. than an elliptical.
Click to expand...
See this thread and chart on it https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=91699
The reason tracking forces came down when elliptical was invented was the worry of vinyl damage due to the lesser surface area of contact.
Chris
 
musichal said:
My understanding of stylus shapes all my life suggests you got this backwards - an elliptical provides more contact area than a conical. A conical may be preferred in cases such as worn records (or mono records), but exerts more force per sq. in. than an elliptical.
Click to expand...

He has it right. The spherical presents a circle against the record, two actually, but the elliptical has the same great radius as the spherical and only differs in that the front to back radius is smaller, say 0.3 mil, which makes the footprint of an elliptical into an oval. But its not taller than the spherical, just skinnier for and aft. A hyper-elliptical has a taller footprint than sphericals and normal ellipticals, and aggressive line contacts like Shibata and Microridge are much taller.
 
beat_truck said:
I wouldn't be afraid of an unworn conical @ 3 grams at all. I play them regularly on my records. One of my Pickering styli even calls for 4 grams. Hell, I sometimes play records on my school phonos and they track at 5 and almost 6 grams. It doesn't hurt them. Even the crappy styrene 45s which are easily worn don't seem bothered by it. A few of my elliptical styli for my Pickering V15 call for 3 grams. No issues there either, but I wouldn't really want to go higher than that.
Click to expand...

Agree completely! In my example I am right now listening to records with a Pickering XV-15 with a D100 stylus at 4.5 grams and I have no worries. Some might say that I should worry, but experience over a long period of time has shown me that as long as the stylus is in good condition, correctly shaped, this does not damage records.

Furthermore, as @beat_truck said, I also have a school phono that tracks at 6 grams and I use it, although I dont play any valuable or prized records on that machine. This to say, do not worry about 3 grams on a spherical stylus. It really is OK.
 
I am not taking either side as I have read that conicals have less contact area than ellipticals and vice versa. Although I have seen more of one opinion than the other. One thing not being taken into account is the exact shape of the elliptical. An elliptical ground from a conical(faux elliptical) has less contact area than say a Bruce Diamond corporation patented shape with a longer (vertically) contact patch. What I wanted to post was that Shure used to warn against using the 0.2 x0.7 tip at tracking forces greater than 1.50 grams. Julian Hirsch took it further and advised not to go above 1.25 grams VTF with that tip profile.
 
johnjhazel said:
What I wanted to post was that Shure used to warn against using the 0.2 x0.7 tip at tracking forces greater than 1.50 grams. Julian Hirsch took it further and advised not to go above 1.25 grams VTF with that tip profile.
Click to expand...
In another forum, one member posted data from a variety of studies. The one most pertinent to me at the time was the finding that a .7 mil conical tracking at 3 grams caused the same record wear as a .2 mil elliptical did at 1.5 grams, which was minimal (after 100 plays the record showed signs of wear under a microscope, but this was not detectable in the sound). I once did my own casual record wear test in the underhung arm of a Stanton STR8-80 turntable. Tracking a Stanton 500AL Mk II (.7 mil conical) at 3.25 grams, I played one side of a Lulu Roman Smith album every morning for 100 consecutive days. After comparing the sound with the unplayed side in both the Stanton and my Linn, I had no concerns about record wear with either the 'table or the cheap DJ cartridge I was using.
 
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