Is there any risk of using a 3 gram tracking force?

[tubewade]

In another forum, one member posted data from a variety of studies. The one most pertinent to me at the time was the finding that a .7 mil conical tracking at 3 grams caused the same record wear as a .2 mil elliptical did at 1.5 grams, which was minimal (after 100 plays the record showed signs of wear under a microscope, but this was not detectable in the sound). I once did my own casual record wear test in the underhung arm of a Stanton STR8-80 turntable. Tracking a Stanton 500AL Mk II (.7 mil conical) at 3.25 grams, I played one side of a Lulu Roman Smith album every morning for 100 consecutive days. After comparing the sound with the unplayed side in both the Stanton and my Linn, I had no concerns about record wear with either the 'table or the cheap DJ cartridge I was using.

That's excellent!

Needlestein reported doing a similar test. He played a record with a .2 x .7, I think it was the 4822-DEE, at ~2.5 grams every morning for several months and after the test period there was no audible deterioration at all. Record wear is really very, very slow unless something is really badly wrong.

 

[HTHMAN]

I have many albums that I bought in the 60s and 70s that have been played a large indeterminate number of times and most still sound great. I also have a box of 45s from the early 60's that are virtually unlistenable. With the albums, I always had quality Duals, Elac or Technics turntables while I played the 45s on a stereo in a suitcase, often with a nickel on the tonearm to stop the sapphire needle skipping. I have determined that albums wear better than 45s.

 

[knotscott]

I suspect that a worn or damaged stylus is more likely to damage a record than a healthy one that's tracking a bit heavy, but may increase stylus wear or the likelihood of suspension damage over time. The good news is that a replacement 3600 stylus can be very reasonably priced, so track it where you like the sound of it (within reason).

FWIW, there are also some really good aftermarket replacement nude elliptical and Vivid Line styli for that cart from $40-$80 that should give you even better sound....however subjective that may be.

 

[beat_truck]

I have determined that albums wear better than 45s.

Yes that's true, mainly because a lot of 45s were made of polystyrene. That crap isn't at all forgiving of high VTF, worn styli, and other issues. Vinyl 45s hold up a lot better.

I have come across styrene 45s where the grooves have turned gray and the music is nearly worn completely away.

 

[Doug G.]

Records last almost indefinitely if you don't play them.



Doug

 

[twiiii]

If your records are clean and you let them rest for a day you should be fine. We tracked records at the radio Station in the 60's at 5 grams all the time and they recordings were played many many times when a selection was in the top 20 of CW music with no ill effects.

 

[jrtrent]

I suspect that a worn or damaged stylus is more likely to damage a record than a healthy one that's tracking a bit heavy, but may increase stylus wear or the likelihood of suspension damage over time. The good news is that a replacement 3600 stylus can be very reasonably priced, so track it where you like the sound of it (within reason).

AT currently offers three styli for that body, all being .6 mil conicals: the $19 ATN3600L that tracks from 2.5-4.5 grams, the $20 ATN91 that tracks from 1.5-2.5 grams, and the $24 ATN91R that also tracks from 1.5-2.5 grams but uses an aluminum cantilever. I haven't heard the ATN91, but I prefer the sound of the ATN91R (best performance in the 'table used was 2.2 grams) over the ATN3600L (optimum performance at 3.5 grams).

 

[beat_truck]

If your records are clean and you let them rest for a day you should be fine.

That whole "letting a record rest" thing is a load of total BS. I'd like to see some credible studies that prove it's anything but audiophoolery.

 

[HTHMAN]

That whole "letting a record rest" thing is a load of total BS. I'd like to see some credible studies that prove it's anything but audiophoolery.

Yep. I read once that at the contact area of the stylus and vinyl that friction creates enough heat to raise that area to almost a molten state. I let my albums cool for a day or two between uses and always handle with oven mitts.

 

[beat_truck]

The stylus tip passes by any point in the groove so quickly that even if it gets hot (and I don't really believe it does), that it doesn't have the time to transfer that heat to the groove. And, if it did get the groove that hot, the record would be pretty much garbage after the first play, and never sound right again, no matter how long it "rested".

Just IMO, of course.

By the way, I have played records multiple times in very short periods of time, even at very high VTFs, and they didn't turn into unplayable, molten puddles of vinyl.

 

[tubewade]

Re: molten vinyl, etc., think about how ice skates work. State of material can be changed not only by temperature but also by pressure. Nevertheless, I also agree that any reforming that needs to be done is done almost instantly. In teenage years didn't we used to put a brand new favourite single on repeat and listen to it 15 times in a row right after bringing it home from TG&Y or Gibsons? Then we did that again the next day, probably for the first week we had it. Those records still sound great today (unless they were styrene), at least mine do. As @twiiii said, 5 grams, and if a song was in the top of the charts it got played a lot every day.

Reason for editing: adding

 

[timofred]

I have found that all the carts I've had sound better at the heavier end of their recommended range.

But every system is different to mine,
currently ,
nag MP-11
JVC QL-A7.

Also when using ,
pro-ject 6.1
Yamaha px2

 

[cafe latte]

Yep. I read once that at the contact area of the stylus and vinyl that friction creates enough heat to raise that area to almost a molten state. I let my albums cool for a day or two between uses and always handle with oven mitts.

This was some nonsense that got some traction in the 80's it has long since been proved as not true at all.
Chris

 

[beat_truck]

I have found that all the carts I've had sound better at the heavier end of their recommended range.

I never did sound comparisons, but I usually run mine towards the top end of the recommended range just so there is less chance of mistracking and because most of my records have at least some imperfections to overcome. I don't doubt that it sounds better, though.

 

[oldman54]

I think a stylus is the one thing in hifi that actually needs break in. I have a couple Kyowa stylus that had to be run above recommended tracking force that were okay after 10 hours or so. There is a guy, on the Shure site in Q&A section who recommends leaving stylus sitting on a record overnight to help it break in. For a week or more. Guy claims to be a professional. Doesn't hurt anything, I guess. I do have a vn15e that wont break in, sibilant at 2 grams. Maybe I should try it with a quarter on the headshell. Hmm, maybe a penny.

 

[cafe latte]

I think a stylus is the one thing in hifi that actually needs break in. I have a couple Kyowa stylus that had to be run above recommended tracking force that were okay after 10 hours or so. There is a guy, on the Shure site in Q&A section who recommends leaving stylus sitting on a record overnight to help it break in. For a week or more. Guy claims to be a professional. Doesn't hurt anything, I guess. I do have a vn15e that wont break in, sibilant at 2 grams. Maybe I should try it with a quarter on the headshell. Hmm, maybe a penny.

Most of the break in is the polishing of the diamond which happens in about 50 hours. If you look at even the best diamonds after 30-50 hours you start to see a super polished area, not a flat just micro polished and this is when things smooth up.
Chris

 

[Wolfie62]

Yep. I read once that at the contact area of the stylus and vinyl that friction creates enough heat to raise that area to almost a molten state. I let my albums cool for a day or two between uses and always handle with oven mitts.

Dang!!

My secret to record handling is out!

I’ve been hacked!

And since its out, I can add this. Thermal (heat) transfer of diamond is 5x faster than copper. It’s a truly exceptional heat transfer material.

 

[tubewade]

In my earlier post I forgot to mention that @vwestlife has also done some pretty amazing tests concerning stylus pressure and record damage. Go to his excellent youtube channel. Search "Will a cheap record player DESTROY your vinyl?"

 

[psemeraro]

I would replace that needle fairly often. What do you guys think ? Every 500 hours of playing time ?

I'm a fanatic and can usually start to hear slight changes around 150 hours on a conical that tracks at 3 grams. (My systems are accurate and revealing, I can still hear to 17k) As soon as a tip starts to sound 'not new" in the drawer it goes. That's just me and I'm NOT preaching. To each their own.

Cheers, Pat

 

[psemeraro]

In another forum, one member posted data from a variety of studies. The one most pertinent to me at the time was the finding that a .7 mil conical tracking at 3 grams caused the same record wear as a .2 mil elliptical did at 1.5 grams, which was minimal (after 100 plays the record showed signs of wear under a microscope, but this was not detectable in the sound). I once did my own casual record wear test in the underhung arm of a Stanton STR8-80 turntable. Tracking a Stanton 500AL Mk II (.7 mil conical) at 3.25 grams, I played one side of a Lulu Roman Smith album every morning for 100 consecutive days. After comparing the sound with the unplayed side in both the Stanton and my Linn, I had no concerns about record wear with either the 'table or the cheap DJ cartridge I was using.

Yep! Those of us who play records professionally tend to have a better understanding of the limits of stylus and record wear with hundreds of plays on many records. Also, Stanton was known for very good polish on their diamonds. Your 500ALll was meant to sound great in professional use where it's conical tip is beneficial/required, vs some other manufacturers conical tips which were just built to be cheap.