Koetsu Third Party Rebuild

[RickB]

SoundSmith. Don't be in a hurry, but you will get a great rebuild. IMHO

Has Peter come out of the hospital from COVID?

I think you made a better choice going to VAS after recent examples of things I've seen from SS...especially if you don't want a perfectly good cantilever ripped off and replaced with a glued on cantilever/stylus assembly (cheaper/easier) in an attempt to renew a good sounding cartridge.

As I understand it doing a quick search, the Syrnix PU3 Arm has a hardwired Phono Cable, so no changing that without modifications. I wouldn't now suspect that being the source of Hum-Noise provided it is intact.

If there is a ground connection problem with the arm or motor then that can cause noise.

 

[markd51]

Has Peter come out of the hospital from COVID?

I think you made a better choice going to VAS after recent examples of things I've seen from SS...especially if you don't want a perfectly good cantilever ripped off and replaced with a glued on cantilever/stylus assembly (cheaper/easier) in an attempt to renew a good sounding cartridge.



If there is a ground connection problem with the arm or motor then that can cause noise.

Agreed. The HW-19 is not hard to play with for one. This can be checked by simple methods such as turn on-turn off of the Table's Motor, or unplugged to isolate the Turntable Motor as the cause, or not.

Nothing noted there, then move onto the Tonearm to inspect.

 

[cafe latte]

Has Peter come out of the hospital from COVID?

I think you made a better choice going to VAS after recent examples of things I've seen from SS...especially if you don't want a perfectly good cantilever ripped off and replaced with a glued on cantilever/stylus assembly (cheaper/easier) in an attempt to renew a good sounding cartridge.



If there is a ground connection problem with the arm or motor then that can cause noise.

I have two carts with stylus fitted by Soundsmith, both with receipts I bought from a friend. Both are wrong, one has cantilever mis aligned and stupidly long (cantilever is not aligned with the cup it is off to the side), the other is rotated and BOTH are glued with some sort of soft glue!! My thought it is maybe UV glue? Problem with UV glue (I tried it and it does not work) is surface stays jelly like just like whatever SS has used on these cantilever. I can see that UV glue would be very convenient for a big turnover but totally useless for a decent job.
Chris

 

[BA3000]

OK, I'll ask, what else do you have hooked to the Receiver? A CD Player, or Tape Deck perhaps? Any such issues exist when playing them?

Unplug the Turntable from the Receiver, now what? The same, or the noise is gone?

The noise might've likely been there all along, just with the lower output-voltage from the Koetsu, you weren't hearing it as easily?

Could be the Phono Cable? Common, that regular Interconnects are a poor choice for a Phono Cable, poor sheilding, too long in length, and not adequate for handling the low voltage signals. Most good phono cables are 1m-1.5m at most for good reason. Signal degradation.

Also, there will be a grounding wire with a Phono Cable.

You'll have to work your way backwards.

I have a tape player connected as well, no hum on that channel

When the turntable is unplugged, there is no hum.

The same hum very well could have been there before with MC cartridge but certainly much much lower. I’d say this seems probably to me.

The hum changes it’s sound a bit as I move and toy around with the positioning of the phono cables. I switched the cables that were on there to some others I had lying around. They’re super basic standard RCA cables. So I didn’t upgrade to anything better shielded.

Now I’m potentially going to feel very stupid here, but I’m realizing that my turntable is not grounded. Is that the obvious thing going on here? It would seem like that to me. Looking at what I am now learning is called a DIN interface connected to my turntable I’m a bit confused how I would connect a ground wire to this. The one I have is called a Sumiko PIB-1 interface box:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image/5403

How do I hook a ground wire up to this?

(Clearly I have a lot to learn, so I thank you all again for helping me)

 

[markd51]

I have a tape player connected as well, no hum on that channel

When the turntable is unplugged, there is no hum.

The same hum very well could have been there before with MC cartridge but certainly much much lower. I’d say this seems probably to me.

The hum changes it’s sound a bit as I move and toy around with the positioning of the phono cables. I switched the cables that were on there to some others I had lying around. They’re super basic standard RCA cables. So I didn’t upgrade to anything better shielded.

Now I’m potentially going to feel very stupid here, but I’m realizing that my turntable is not grounded. Is that the obvious thing going on here? It would seem like that to me. Looking at what I am now learning is called a DIN interface connected to my turntable I’m a bit confused how I would connect a ground wire to this. The one I have is called a Sumiko PIB-1 interface box:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image/5403

How do I hook a ground wire up to this?

(Clearly I have a lot to learn, so I thank you all again for helping me)

Ahh! So, you do have a DIN Mod on your Tonearm, correct? And that Sumiko PIB-1 Interface box has a Cable exiting on one end that plugs into the bottom of your Arm, correct?

And then on the other side, exiting the Interface Box is 2 RCA Female Outs, and next to that is a Ground Lug for attaching a Ground Wire.

Just running a piece of wire from that Ground Lug on the Box, to the Ground Lug on the back of your Marantz Receiver might do the trick.

Further upgrades which might also help, is the quality of the pair of RCA Cables running from that box to your Receiver will also help. That the signal exiting that box is still small, and low in voltage, and as well also susceptible to noise from RFI-EMI nasties.

Cheap shielded RCA-RCA Cables aren't that expensive for such, and can be found on that great big auction site.

Once you get the Koetsu back, you might likely find you do not have sufficient gain. You might then need a Step Up Transformer (SUT), or a cheapo MC Phono Stage to tie into the mix.

 

[markd51]

If, for say, your Sryrinx Arm does have a DIN Mod where a DIN-RCA Cable can be plugged into the bottom of the Arm directly, then that could also as well eliminate the need of that Interface Box altogether.

Pretty much, all DIN-RCA Phono Cables have a ground wire incorporated.

That in a nutshell "less is more", meaning less crap in the audio path, especially here would be beneficial.

Let us know.

 

[cafe latte]

Retippers who can’t replace just the diamond very easily prefer it. But it’s a hell of a lot more work and exposure to catastrophic damage. A good retipper does NOT prefer it.

If all you need is a diamond and you are being sold a cantilever of the same material when yours is fine, run; don’t walk. Run as fast as you can. Run right out of your creepers. Beware the upsell to the sapphire cantilever as well, as this is often an attempt to disguise the same ploy. A retipper who insists on upgrading you to sapphire or ruby and won’t listen to you when you ask to keep the original cantilever also deserves your smelly creepers left behind in his workshop.

There is more than one highly recommended retipper who heats the cantilever up to break the epoxy bond holding the old cantilever in place. This has got to have a fifty per cent failure rate at least. If you get a cantilever hot enough to melt the factory joint, guess what’s also getting heated up? The coils and the suspension. The suspension tie wire is held in place inside the cantilever with the same epoxy that holds the cantilever in place and the insulation surrounding the coil wires that keeps the stereo cartridge a stereo cartridge can also melt and turn your formerly stereo cartridge into mono. And a lot of people don’t notice right away what’s going on when the cartridge comes back and it doesn’t sound quite right anymore. The volume and detail are just as before, but...hmmm... it’s just different somehow. A year or more later you might suddenly get clued in and realize what happened. People have been told by more than one very popular retipper that their house must have gotten struck by lightning and although there was no other evidence of any electrical damage to sensitive electronics in the house, somehow the single stray lightning blast of 300,000,000 volts and 30,000 amps did nothing but sizzle the ultra fine wires in your Koetsu, van den Hul, Kiseki, MC Anna, Transfiguration, Supex, Lyra, you name it. It’s such a mystery!!!!!!!

To be sure, not every case of a cartridge going mono is due to heating up. Some designs do lend themselves to wearing down of the insulation. So it does happen. But you should never find out you have a formerly stereo cartridge after the work has been complete. If a retipper silently sends you a mono cartridge back when you gave him stereo, at the very least, this means he is not even checking the coils and wasting your time and money.

There are too many who do this ie talk people into cantilever transplant. Mr Pig on a thread with one of his best carts spoke proudly about such a retip. The retipper had recommended that the cantilever needed replacing too which he agreed to. I checked and the retipped could not do diamond only retips so this was the reason.
Removing glue can take a long time as best way is mechanical ie chip it away. This way you are not going to hurt anything. When things become a production line time becomes a factor and this is not good. A retip can take an hour or it can take 5 hours the retipper needs to "wear this". Not every job is quick..
Chris

 

[RickB]

I’ve never heard a hum that was the cartridge’s fault.

I have with Grados on certain tables.

 

[RickB]

Right, but there’s nothing that can be repaired with the cartridge that will make the hum go away. It’s not a build defect, in other words.

It's just a question that the Grados won't work on some tables with AC motors while a myriad of LOMC, HOMC, MM, etc., will, so the build "defect" is a build characteristic then.

BUT, we're leaving the original reason for the thread with all this...no mas for me.

 

[sturgus]

I think you made a wise choice with VAS he does a lot of work for VPI. I will say that my Rosewood retip was done by Soundsmith an it sounds just like the original. It was more expensive than replacing the cantilever.

 

[cafe latte]

I think you made a wise choice with VAS he does a lot of work for VPI. I will say that my Rosewood retip was done by Soundsmith an it sounds just like the original. It was more expensive than replacing the cantilever.

Not all charge more for diamond only, but reason some do is time. Fitting a cantilever is very quick, but aligning a diamond can take hours to do well and time costs money. Also now and again a very expensive diamond will ping away lost forever. It seems like Vas are doing good work.
Chris

 

[BA3000]

If, for say, your Sryrinx Arm does have a DIN Mod where a DIN-RCA Cable can be plugged into the bottom of the Arm directly, then that could also as well eliminate the need of that Interface Box altogether.

Pretty much, all DIN-RCA Phono Cables have a ground wire incorporated.

That in a nutshell "less is more", meaning less crap in the audio path, especially here would be beneficial.

Let us know.

Well, just grounding the turntable took care of 85-90% of the hum issues I was experiencing. That's a no-brainer of course, but I was dumb and never had my turntable grounded before. There still is a hum when I turn the volume to a high enough level, but I would rarely turn the music up that loud anyway. Part of me still does want to chase the origin of the remaining hum, even though I won't hear it most of the time. I did switch the RCA cables to a better shielded style, but I'm pretty sure this did little to nothing. About the tonearm DIN connection, how would I find out if there is an RCA/DIN cable that will work with mine? I'm wary about going down this road as it seems a bit complicated for me. I wonder why the hardwired Phono cable would not still be on the Syrinx PU 3.

When the Koetsu is finished, I was planning on buying a SUT to support the cartidge's relatively low output.

 

[JohnT123]

With the amount of money you folks spend on a single cartridge, I would imagine a top line MC pre amp would be mandatory in getting the best results.

Turntables and carts are the deepest rabbit hole I've discovered in my audio renaissance. So many variables, so many opinions. I hope @BA3000 has a great outcome with this project.

 

[Audiofreak71]

With the amount of money you folks spend on a single cartridge, I would imagine a top line MC pre amp would be mandatory in getting the best results.

Turntables and carts are the deepest rabbit hole I've discovered in my audio renaissance. So many variables, so many opinions. I hope @BA3000 has a great outcome with this project.

While a good phono stage with a top cart is highly recommended it’s the sum of all the parts that will make a high end cart sound it’s best, I.E. the tonearm, table and yes even the cables but I don’t want to get started as the naysayers fall prey on any cable talk.

Audiofreak71

 

[markd51]

Well, just grounding the turntable took care of 85-90% of the hum issues I was experiencing. That's a no-brainer of course, but I was dumb and never had my turntable grounded before. There still is a hum when I turn the volume to a high enough level, but I would rarely turn the music up that loud anyway. Part of me still does want to chase the origin of the remaining hum, even though I won't hear it most of the time. I did switch the RCA cables to a better shielded style, but I'm pretty sure this did little to nothing. About the tonearm DIN connection, how would I find out if there is an RCA/DIN cable that will work with mine? I'm wary about going down this road as it seems a bit complicated for me. I wonder why the hardwired Phono cable would not still be on the Syrinx PU 3.

When the Koetsu is finished, I was planning on buying a SUT to support the cartidge's relatively low output.

You would have to investigate the underside of the Tonearm, and how that junction box is connected to the tonearm? Whether it is hardwired, or merely a plug in cord-cable to the Tonearm.

As I mentioned before I believe, the hum could be originating from two different areas, the Arm, and if not, the Motor. The Tonearm should be live regardless if the Motor is on or not, correct? Is the hum heard with the motor being off, and turning up the volume? Or only when the motor is then turned on?

Hum can be a ground issue, at the Arm, or Motor, or hum can be some inherit 60hz product of the motor itself, or the associated electronics for the motor.