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L Cochrane push pull 6l6 amplifier debug.

trainbuftony

Electron Herder
In a previous thread, an AKer was trying to diagnose and get working a custom built amplifier by a gentleman named Lance Cochrane. He was not able to achieve musical bliss with it, so he returned it. During the course of that thread I offered to have a look at it. The OP decided to simply send it back for a refund. After he did so, Lance chimed in on the thread.
That's neither here nor there. Another AKer took me up on the offer to have a look at his Lance Cochrane amp which he believes has similar symptoms.
The symptoms: amplifier sounds OK at low volume but at listening volume, it's unlistenable due to massive distortion.

Aker @eiraved sent me this unit, with tubes, and it arrived unscathed. The story is that the last person to open it up was the builder Lance Cochrane. The business card I found inside suggests that is the case. The owner would like for it to work correctly and I agreed to help achieve that end, under the condition that I would post a thread and share my thoughts and findings. So far I'm not impressed.
Paint and finish:
This is clearly a repurposed amplifier. I think it came out of a juke box but I really don't know. The offset transformers and tube sockets suggest it was originally designed to be hidden out of sight. Several holes in the chassis have been plugged. The paint is raised up and cracking, not like a wrinkle paint but like way too much rattle can, in thick coats without sufficient drying time. The mounting ears of the transformers, tube sockets and wiring all have overspray on them. The whole amp is screwed to a cutting board, with rubber feet. I'm not in love with the style.

Construction:
The amp appears to have been stripped and totally repurpurposed into its current configuration which at first glance is a push pull cathode biased output stage. Bottom side leaves a lot to be desired as well. There's flying connections and the whole thing has no order to the design or layout. The terminal strip which originally connected to the speakers is painted over. Jumpers beneath connect to 5 way banana posts. As someone who builds amplifiers i feel it's worth noting that a clean chassis direct from hammond comes in a variety of size options at the ~$20 price point. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense from my perspective to try and salvage stuff like this chassis. The output transformers however look viable. If I had to guess this thing should make a clean 20 watts. The owner says it doesn't even come close.
Next: we plug it in!
 

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The amp you referred to is still sitting in my shop. Am hopeful your findings on @eiraved amp will shed some light on the problem mine has.
 
I got started and found the rectifier putting out something like 70vdc that can't be right, I thought to myself... I grabbed another 5u4 and put it in. Sometimes these things don't survive shipping well. The new rectifier also put out about 60v until something must have shook somewhere and the DC came up. I didn't record the DC voltage once it was above 300v, I figured I had fixed something or at least made progress.

The progress was short lived.

I put it on the signal generator (the good one) and the scope. The thing has what I believe to be a massive oscillation.
I'll shoot a scope photo in the morning when I sanity check my hookup. At first glance it appears we have a high powered oscillator. I can't say for certain what the cause is, but it doesn't strike me as a fantastic idea to draw the cathode connection for the power stage and the input stage at the same point. I need to get some sleep, this one's going to be a mess...
 
Sounds like a doozy! I tried to bulletproof the packaging of the amp and tubes to give the ape-fisted handlers a worthy challenge, LOL!
BTW, awesome preamble. :beerchug:
 
The amplifier is rather unstable and has a oscillation at 60 kilohertz.
I suspected an oscillation when I saw this. On my scope. Shortly after that my sister sent me a photo of my dog who clearly doesn't approve. Dogs have incredible hearing. Perdie is 250 miles away in Reno, and im convinced she heard this oscillating. Maybe the more experienced heads can chime in... That doesn't look right at all to me so I took a minute before bed to investigate. I unplugged all inputs to the amplifier and scaled my HP 334 distortion analyzer to 1, then I did a standard distortion test and twisted the dial until I saw the output dip on the analog meter. It dips right around 60khz. I think that this is a valid test to determine the frequency of an oscillation but I'm not sure. Once you crank up the input even a tiny bit, the whole thing goes completely whackadoodle.
Should I work up a schematic?
Is there any interest in me trying to make sense of this, or would my time be better spent simply wiring it up with a known good schematic?
Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm going to sleep.
 

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The amplifier is rather unstable and has a oscillation at 60 kilohertz.
I suspected an oscillation when I saw this. On my scope. Maybe the more experienced heads can chime in... That doesn't look right at all to me so I took a minute before bed to investigate. I unplugged all inputs to the amplifier and scaled my HP 334 distortion analyzer to 1, then I did a standard distortion test and twisted the dial until I saw the output dip on the analog meter. It dips right around 60khz. I think that this is a valid test to determine the frequency of an oscillation but I'm not sure. Once you crank up the input even a tiny bit, the whole thing goes completely whackadoodle.
Should I work up a schematic?
Is there any interest in me trying to make sense of this, or would my time be better spent simply wiring it up with a known good schematic?
Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm going to sleep.
Train,

Can you take a set of close-up photos of the wiring? The wiring layout may be contributing to the whacky scope results.

Again, it looks like there is only one heater line wiring. Which means the other line is grounded to the chassis. This may work in cheap single-ended amps, but in more complicated push-pulls --- usually lifted twisted pairs are the standard.

Is this the amp that sells for $1000+? It seems the components are nothing special.

Lastly, I guess there is no official schematic available. Hand-drawing one from that layout is going to take a while. :( I'm curious about the feedback strategy, both local and global.

Thanks for the update!
 
Maybe use the one posted in the other thread as a starting point and make changes to reflect the actual as built state, assuming its fairly close.

i wonder if the feedback phase is wrong. Assuming similar to the other one, it doesn't have a lot but any positive feedback can cause oscillations. Might be worth unhooking the NFB as a simple test.
 
Maybe use the one posted in the other thread as a starting point and make changes to reflect the actual as built state, assuming its fairly close.

i wonder if the feedback phase is wrong. Assuming similar to the other one, it doesn't have a lot but any positive feedback can cause oscillations. Might be worth unhooking the NFB as a simple test.

Unhooking the NFB was one thing tried on the San Francisco Giants (orange and black) amp. The output to the speakers got louder, but that was the only result I recognized at the time. I've purchased an oscilloscope from another AK member and it is in transit.
 
Well, I am kinda curious as to what's gone awry... ;-)
Nothing has. Last person who had his probes in this amplifier was Lance. Gotta assume he tuned it up and got it to work exactly like he wanted it to. He did not however do so with the knowledge that it would soon be on my bench.


Maybe use the one posted in the other thread as a starting point and make changes to reflect the actual as built state, assuming its fairly close.

i wonder if the feedback phase is wrong. Assuming similar to the other one, it doesn't have a lot but any positive feedback can cause oscillations. Might be worth unhooking the NFB as a simple test.
That will be one of my first checks.

Train,

Can you take a set of close-up photos of the wiring? The wiring layout may be contributing to the whacky scope results.
Ya think?
It's a complete rats nest.
 
if it got louder with the NFB unhooked, the phase is right. If it was positive feedback the gain should drop. Unless maybe all of the power is being eaten by the oscillation but you'd see the power supply voltages shift upwards and the output tube cathode voltage swing down with less current draw. Different amp though so its not completely impossible the symptoms will be different on the one Tony has on the bench.

just not that many things should cause a steady 60kc oscillation in an amplifier. If its not wrong feedback phase, its probably some lead dress issue.
 
Let's please keep the discussion on this thread relating to this specific amplifier. The gold glitter cutting board amplifier.
If @BmWr75 wants to send me his for evaluation, I'd be open to that once I get this one to a working state. Having seen that thread, I know that his amp will have a set of problems all it's own. No point in speculating about what those might be until it's on a bench somewhere.
 
Nothing has. Last person who had his probes in this amplifier was Lance. Gotta assume he tuned it up and got it to work exactly like he wanted it to. He did not however do so with the knowledge that it would soon be on my bench.
You know, just taking a wild-ass stab from the symptoms (early onset of distortion and overtones) --- there's an impedance mismatch between stage(s).

Maybe even from the signal input to the first stage.

An actual schematic could unlock this problem(s) --- before all the scope and signal generator gyrations.

Just my 2¢ worth of 2¢. ;)
 
Surely. Curiosity got the best of me and as soon as I unboxed it I got to work verifying the problem. The schematic is going to be real simple and I'm tempted to draw out one channel today at least to see how he's got this wired. I did that with the last amplifiers I got in, and found them to not even make 1/4 of the power they should. The schematic revealed that it probably never worked. Another basement tinkerers failed project...
Yes, today I'll draw up a basic schematic.
 
Surely. Curiosity got the best of me and as soon as I unboxed it I got to work verifying the problem. The schematic is going to be real simple and I'm tempted to draw out one channel today at least to see how he's got this wired. I did that with the last amplifiers I got in, and found them to not even make 1/4 of the power they should. The schematic revealed that it probably never worked. Another basement tinkerers failed project...
Yes, today I'll draw up a basic schematic.
This would be excellent!

It would be like translating a foreign language story into English.
 
finally had a chance to open this on something with a decent size screen. The output jack wiring runs awful darn close to those input jacks. That may be the oscillation problem right there. Not sure what the terminals are directly above the one input jack but it looks to be tied to the output transformer, so maybe 70v output? Either way that looks close enough to allow for unwanted coupling. No shielded wiring on the input, which could be enough to fix that, assuming it is a coupling probem. Or you just remove those un-used connections and get the output away from the input completely.
 
finally had a chance to open this on something with a decent size screen. The output jack wiring runs awful darn close to those input jacks. That may be the oscillation problem right there. Not sure what the terminals are directly above the one input jack but it looks to be tied to the output transformer, so maybe 70v output? Either way that looks close enough to allow for unwanted coupling. No shielded wiring on the input, which could be enough to fix that, assuming it is a coupling probem. Or you just remove those un-used connections and get the output away from the input completely.
The skill level is odd, especially for what I gather is a high-end unit. However, I may have misinterpreted the market goal of this specific amp.

You know... if it were me... I get a schematic and redo the whole thing.

That may end up being the ultimate result of this thread. :idea:
 
Here's the product of a Canadian amplifier guru I won't name. Can you believe it has a hum which I can't get rid of? Lol. Better luck with your crazy amp!

I kind of admire the naivety of this type of work, it reminds me of how magical electronics seemed when I first learned about it. I actually feel like this kind of amplifier builder ought to be protected, somehow, because there's something special about blind confidence and enthusiasm.
 

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