kevintomb
Well-Known Member
What are those subs and mains you are using if I can ask?
Left & Right Subs for Hi-Fi?
- Thread starter LRVGTR
- Start date
I have three systems with stereo subwoofers. In the one with Vandersteen subs, speaker level is the only option. Sounds good to me, and to others.
In the other two systems, I use line level connections but have experimented with speaker level and cannot discern a difference.
You may well be right, but it hardly seems worth arguing about. But I guess that's one of AK's main attractions - the chance to express one's opinion (that, and to use every thread as an opportunity to post pics of one's gear, LOL, LOL!).
Going back to the OP's primary question; I agree that stereo subwoofers are an improvement over one.
Last edited:
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
Yes. It's two inputs. Left and right. BTW, it didn't remove all separation. Just some. When I removed one wire, the sound "spread" more in the mains.
BTW, FWIW, I was in a hurry (this is just a temporary setup) and, since the amp has an adjustable volume control, I plugged it into a tape out rather than using Y connectors between my pre-amp and amp. Meaning I have to adjust the volume on the sub amp when I adjust the volume on the pre, since the output to it is constant. AFAIK, when I hook it up "properly", this problem will go away, but I doubt it. It seems to combine the signals in a way that does this.
yep, exactly the same
and to allow the trolls a place to troll lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
Last edited:
Yes I agree but my intentions with my setup works well with a single sub.
^^^^^QFT ^^^^^
but apparently this is their argument, the main amp has a signature they want, but miraculously the sub amp has no signature so the signal is unmolested when passed through, now that's funny eh lol. So their plate amp is somehow transparent but their main amp is notme thinks they need a better main amp if their sub's PLATE AMP is superior eh.
First of all, it doesn't matter if the sub is perfectly neutral. If it isn't neutral, it won't be neutral for either line-level or for speaker-level inputs. You seem to think there is some radically different signal path within the sub for speaker-level and line-level -- even though I've already clarified there isn't. There is a step-down of speaker level to create internal line-level, they take the exact same path after that. Regardless of whether the sub is neutral, a different signal in (e.g. line vs speaker-level input) will indisputably cause the sub to have a different output. Which will sound better, or whether there is even be an audible difference, is situational based upon individual equipment, music type, individual preferences. The only "noise" in this thread is from you cherry-picking the "upsides" (which aren't even definitive upsides as discussed in post #23) and ignoring the downsides, so that you can repeatedly declare that line level is definitively better. You should know better than to declare anything as an absolute in audio.
Second of all, there is a very clear and very specific reason why active subs can be very neutral. That is because every single element in an active sub's signal chain, from input to output, is selected, controlled and designed by the sub designer/manufacturer. That totally self-contained (input to output) nature of knowing and carefully choosing every element in the active sub is very different from stereo amp and speaker design where, at the time of the design, the designer has absolutely no idea what the amp and speaker pairings the customer will use them with. If a designer can't make an active sub very neutral, when they literally have absolute control over every single element in the signal path/driver/enclosure, they should definitely choose another profession.
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
I think you are purposely missing the point we are making. The sub is not the variable, the main amp is. The one you use for the left/right channels, and then have to drop down to go into the sub high level input.
No one is talking about "Sounding better", as that is merely a subjective impression.
What matters, is maintaining the actual signal intact, from preamp, to sub amp.
Adding several extra amp stages, will Never, repeat never improve the signal. Signals subjected to extra circuits can only be degraded. Albeit maybe only a small amount, but that is why one removes the extra variables of more circuitry.
Either way, this is a silly discussion. You have failed to prove your method will increase the fidelity of the signal in any way.
This is a great example. In the case you mention, where the amp rolls off only the lowest frequencies -- having the amp participate in the sub input (speaker-level connections) would be a huge negative, because the sub output will be too low relative to the mains. Line level sub inputs would be a million times better because the preamp won't be affected at all so the sub will continue putting out low bass unimpaired and balanced with the mains.
In a different case, where the overall gain curve of the amp tapers off at higher volume, then using speaker-level is much better because the sub will always remain perfectly balanced with the mains because they both see the same signal (the gain tapering would be completely transparent). Using line-level in that case, would be a million times worse because the mains would taper off, but the sub would not taper at all, so the sub output would inappropriately dominate the overall sound.
If the gain curve on an amp is anything other than completely flat, speaker-level is far better than line-level for maintaining sub/main balance across the volume spectrum. If the stereo amp was noisy (which is unlikely at an audible level, but still should be considered), then the sound quality of speaker-level connection could be worse even though the balance is better. Coloration of the amp could be a benefit because the sub matches the mains, or it might be worse -- you can't know until you try both.
It would be unusual for the difference to be huge, but it's not rare for it to be not that subtle. I'm sure in many instances, it's inaudible. It's best to try both. If you have an SS pre and a tube amp, I would say you should definitely try both (for sure, the inclusion of the tube amp could be worse or could be better, you'll only know by trying).
If there is distortion in the stereo amp, than agreed that you are degrading the signal. In reality, distortion in any quality amp is so low that it would be extremely rare for it to degrade the sound, but that can't be ignored. If, however, the stereo amp "colors" the sound, as a tube amp might, the sound impact of the amp could be either positive or negative. Having the sub follow the coloration of the mains (by using speaker-level) may be a positive -- or bypassing that coloration (line-level) could be better. You have to try both to find out which sounds better in your system.
It's nothing like that, unless you use a Kraco amp in your home stereo
. It would be extremely difficult to find any home stereo amp from any credible manufacturer that adds meaningful noise or distortion (which is not to say it should be ignored -- listen to both).
Last edited:
You are missing your own point. The main amp is driving the main speakers -- that is 95% of the sound you hear. The more "variable" the main amp is, the more you are likely to benefit from the sub using the same input signal, so that the sub acts like an extension of the mains. You are looking only at added distortion of the signal from the amp (which is only half the equation, and typically the lesser half because amp distortion is typically so low), and ignoring any color the amp adds (which is indisputably in the 95% of the sound you hear from the mains, and which may or may not be beneficial to have mirrored in the sub -- listen to both).
Unless you only use your system exclusively to drive oscilloscopes, you might find that listening come in handy as an evaluation method.
To be back on point, I think the benefit of having two subs depends very much on how deep your mains go. Sub output becomes more non-directional the lower you go in frequency. When you cross over at very low frequencies with large mains, a single sub can perform very well. My mains go down to 30hz, and I'm very happy with a single sub. That said, I haven't evaluated two subs in that system. If I were to add another sub for that system, which is in the living room, I'd need to get a new sub, and a new wife -- and probably not in that order . That could be pretty expensive and time consuming . I'd love to try it though.
I do think a single sub in a 2-channel system does typically do quite well for room coverage when it is placed between the mains. In my theater, I replaced four 10" or 12" subs with a single 18" sub in the back of the room. I did this for space reasons. My main theater speakers also have subs built-in, so that helps, but I do experience some non-uniformity across the theater room from the single large sub. I've never had that be an issue in any of my stereo systems (all of which have only a single sub).
If you have large mains, you might be able to do fine with a single, but if you have space/budget, might as well use two.
. That could be pretty expensive and time consuming . I'd love to try it though.I do think a single sub in a 2-channel system does typically do quite well for room coverage when it is placed between the mains. In my theater, I replaced four 10" or 12" subs with a single 18" sub in the back of the room. I did this for space reasons. My main theater speakers also have subs built-in, so that helps, but I do experience some non-uniformity across the theater room from the single large sub. I've never had that be an issue in any of my stereo systems (all of which have only a single sub).
If you have large mains, you might be able to do fine with a single, but if you have space/budget, might as well use two.
Last edited:
That's very odd. Seems like something must be wrong with the sub's internal left/right line-level summing circuit that is impacting your receiver/amp. Does your sub have speaker-level inputs? If so, that could solve two issues:
1) It would allow the sub volume to scale with the mains in the absence of preamp outputs (eliminating the need to adjust sub volume for fixed tape monitor output level);
2) If your sub's internal left/right line-level summing circuit is affecting the amp/receiver (that's the only thing I can think of that would reduce separation), the sub's speaker-level inputs are likely to be very insulated from all of that summing. The sub's high level inputs are very high impedance, so they should not impact the main speaker output at all even if there is something wrong or non-optimal in the internal left/right summing circuit/design.
People that know a lot more about it than you or I say otherwise.
They are both valid ways of getting signal to a subwoofer.
^^^^^QFT ^^^^^
but apparently this is their argument, the main amp has a signature they want, but miraculously the sub amp has no signature so the signal is unmolested when passed through, now that's funny eh lol. So their plate amp is somehow transparent but their main amp is not
There are many variables in an amplifier (sonic signature or lack of is just one).
Last edited:
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
I think the best answer is to just show you the one I have: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MR6YCQ1
Interestingly, it can also be a full range mono amp. I'm actually fairly happy with it. It powers my old $99 KLH subwoofer just fine. It gives my multiple small bookshelf stack the bottom it needs. I've got another dual 8" sub that I want to give it a try with one of these days. But right now I'm trying to finish up the walls in the new "mancave" section of the new shop building. Once I free up some time for getting this right I'll work out what I need to do. I may just get a plate amp for it. The system powers speakers in the shop section as well and I'm thinking of putting subs in both rooms when this is all done. The easiest way to do that will be to do the speaker inputs. It's not ideal, but lower frequencies are pretty forgiving for the kind of distortion it may introduce compared to using line in.
Interestingly, it can also be a full range mono amp. I'm actually fairly happy with it. It powers my old $99 KLH subwoofer just fine. It gives my multiple small bookshelf stack the bottom it needs. I've got another dual 8" sub that I want to give it a try with one of these days. But right now I'm trying to finish up the walls in the new "mancave" section of the new shop building. Once I free up some time for getting this right I'll work out what I need to do. I may just get a plate amp for it. The system powers speakers in the shop section as well and I'm thinking of putting subs in both rooms when this is all done. The easiest way to do that will be to do the speaker inputs. It's not ideal, but lower frequencies are pretty forgiving for the kind of distortion it may introduce compared to using line in.
Last edited:
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
That is an "Appeal to authority" type of argument/comment.
I never said it was not a valid way of getting a signal to a subwoofer.
And in fact, said it probably does not really make much difference either way.
Who is doing that?
So the signal going through your main amplifier with a zillion more parts than a step down is maintaining the actual signal better?
Better than stating opinion as absolute fact.
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
Can we get back to the topic please?
I think some are arguing for no real reason. I have used BOTH ways of hooking up subs in the past. High level and low level
I have also used one sub and stereo subs.
I like stereo subs, but also like dual mono subs. I think with most things, as I said before, it all depends on the size of the room and layout and where you sit, which set up works best.
I think some are arguing for no real reason. I have used BOTH ways of hooking up subs in the past. High level and low level
I have also used one sub and stereo subs.
I like stereo subs, but also like dual mono subs. I think with most things, as I said before, it all depends on the size of the room and layout and where you sit, which set up works best.