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Lenco L75 or Ariston Audio RD11s or Thorens TD125 mk2?

^ Fun info above Thanks.

As a former DJ, though mostly amateur university radio stuff, I can agree that quality sound can be achieved in that environment, though it is challenging. At the university we did take it seriously, plus we had excellent gear, and so did some of the clubs and radio stations I knew or worked at. It was hard to reproduce high end sound in those environments though. Weird shapes to the buildings, all those gyrating soft objects on the dance floor sucking up all the sound waves... ;)

I'm interested in trying the rubber mounting on my 125. I don't have a challenging locale for mine and I don't know if I would hear a difference but it would be kind of fun to play with it.
 
Montycat said:
^ Fun info above Thanks.

As a former DJ, though mostly amateur university radio stuff, I can agree that quality sound can be achieved in that environment, though it is challenging. At the university we did take it seriously, plus we had excellent gear, and so did some of the clubs and radio stations I knew or worked at. It was hard to reproduce high end sound in those environments though. Weird shapes to the buildings, all those gyrating soft objects on the dance floor sucking up all the sound waves... ;)

I'm interested in trying the rubber mounting on my 125. I don't have a challenging locale for mine and I don't know if I would hear a difference but it would be kind of fun to play with it.
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No prob - it was fun to present it - the post-script reminds me of my days fooling around my own sound-system and others that were much bigger and more awesome. Thanks for the kind words.

I agree with your point about the challenges of getting good sound in adverse environments, but I'm sure you'd also agree that the greater challenges also made it more rewarding when the gig turned out to be successful in these and other regards.

I share your outlook on that last point of yours too. Still, the consensus seems to be that dynamism and bass (including midbass 'punch') is enhanced with this mod. The good news is also that this mod is easily reversible if it affects any other aspect of performance in any adverse way.

mfrench said:
Presently, I have four Lencos, two Prestos, and one Pioneer idler drive.
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Quite a number of idlers in your camp. But aren't those (Bogen?) Prestos really Lenco-variants too?

Great collection of TTs, nevertheless, though.

Cheers.
 
@waj4all
The Prestos are real Presto Recording Corp, with no relation to Lenco; a Pirouette T-18 (mid-50s) and, a 15G2 "Audrey" (early 50's).
There are two Bogen-Presto Lenco B61's; one in a light hollow plinth, Lucille; and the other is in an MCM console.
I also have a heavily modd'd Bogen-Presto Lenco B51 named Flinston (converted from light to heavy platter, and soapstone plinth).
And another drastically restyled L75. I styled the L75 to match the style of the Presto Pirouette.
The Pioneer is the PL7e cast top plate deck.
 
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waj4all said:
Perhaps it's best just to start by first pointing out that - while it was an officially endorsed alternative for the 125 - defeating the suspension was never ever officially recommended for the lighter suspended Thorens models ...

... and neither would I be willing to sacrifice even one iota of the 125's outstanding abilities in these regards (especially at low-mids). But the legendary quality of the rubber-mounted EMT-928 version suggests that this might not be a problem, as it's hardly likely that EMT would employ a strategy which would compromise the quality in any way detrimental in their quest to offer a line of various TTs which are still regarded as some of the best-sounding TTs ever made.
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Must something be "officially endorsed", and proven by others, before trying it? I didn't know that! When I modded my 125 (described in #43) I didn't know it was "officially endorsed", and at that time I'd never even heard of EMT. I just didn't like the springs and wondered if they were really necessary. I thought of the mod, tried it, and preferred it in a head-to-head comparison.

@waj4all Sorry to edit you, waj4all, but I didn't alter the meaning.
 
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Bimasta, you asked, "Must something be "officially endorsed", and done by others who are highly respected, before trying it?"

No!!!

But it is relevant in the context of issues presented in post #76.

timmy.timmy said:
So Thorens addresses this "option" for some use in "extreme" conditions where the suspension will prove to be problematic. So it is not proposed as a universal "upgrade" tweak for each of their suspended TD's turntables. And indeed there are "better" sturdy/rigid cabinet/chassis suited turntables out there for such a 'discotheque' DJ job. This I know... Where for 'broadcast' use the suspension of such turntable is not problematic I understand. Or is it ?

Yes; 'school of thought' or 'trend' are still vivid in the audio world. Yet they should be 'humble' to know that in the audio world there is no such thing as a universal "improvement" or "better". On my Thorens to eliminate the suspension proved to be just "bad" sounding in comparison. Lost my beloved typical "airy" sound of my TD160 and the depth achieved through the higher frequencies. If more "bassy" sounding, it also sounded "muffled" to these ears.



Gave my side of the story here above. And I totally understand those for who it turned out to be an improvement. So even if admittedly there less "isolation" from the motor 'vibrations' through the chassis, it turned out to be another 'downside' in my case. And 'school of thought' and/or 'trend' in the audio world today is also to 'dampen' everything. That will 'impact' the sound inevitably. And some might actually 'prefer' that...
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waj4all said:
Bimasta, you asked, "Must something be "officially endorsed", and done by others who are highly respected, before trying it?"

No!!!

But it is relevant in the context of issues presented in post #76.
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Maybe I just got up on the wrong side of the bed today...

But I DON'T think "it is relevant in the context of issues presented in post #76."

Naw, forget it. I'm just in an argumentative mood...
 
nailer said:
Were the Empires among the early tables to use a hung suspension?
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Possibly. Mine must be around fifty years old now. I also bought an old 698 well over thirty years ago. For comparison I also own a Thorens TD125 which sits in an SME plinth and has 3012 arm. It's a lovely turntable and if I had to choose I'd probably keep the Thorens just because it has a twelve inch arm. It just happens that I also have a nice Lenco L70, a couple of GL75s and a nice pair of ex Dynatron GL78s. They have a certain boogie factor that's hard to find in other turntables unless your lucky enough to own a Garrard 301/401. Lencos are great turntables but a Garrard is quieter. Oh and I have an early Linn Sondek too but it never gets played I'm afraid.
 
Chops54, welcome!!!

I tried very hard to resist this question, but, since you have Lenco & Thorens 125 (among others) as I do, I have to ask:

How does your 125 Thorens compare to a Lenco, with specific regard to midrange “warmth” or “coolness”? And, if you compensate for either trait in either TT, how do you achieve that?

Not sure you’re still there. But I’m also curious as to whether anyone else would have any thoughts specifically on the midrange “warmth” or “coolness” of these or other idlers and belt-drivers - relatively speaking. For instance, some seem to think a Dual idler is warmer at mids while others believe a cooler midrange tone from Lenco is more neutral.

I wonder…..

Cheers.
 
@waj4all, your enthusiasm made me wanna take out the L75 out of storage and stick in near the TD-125 for a one on one session... I've grown wiser over the years than falling for that with the SL-1200 (which proved futile for the Techie), but no one had spoken so convincingly of the Lenco before, so I guess I'll be busy over the next few days. I'll post some pics later, after I mount the same VMS cart on both.

EDIT: I'll be toying with these

NT3Wfw2.jpg
 
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Thank you waj4all. Well the truth is I haven't used the Thorens for a while as the speed control board needs recapping. I haven't bothered to fix it as I have plans for this deck which include a bigger motor and a new speed control board/psu.I retire soon and I'm looking forward to this project. As for a comparison with one of the Lencos, well I do prefer the Thorens. The Lenco has a gutsy sound with the ability to project itself into the room but the Thorens is more articulate and I might say it sounds more truthful. The Lenco holds its speed very well and I think it does piano better than a belt drive deck. However I feel that even though I can't hear it I sense the Lenco adds some noise to the mix which gives the music that drive and energy. I built a Lenco for a friend a fair while ago and he's into heavy metal, death metal? Anyway he loves it and with this type of music it displays some real authority. The Thorens on the other hand just plays nice music. With a decent arm and cartridge it just disappears and you can get on with listening to the music. I can't be more specific than that as my turntables have different arms and cartridges and several are stored away. Anyway here's a Lenco I built using a 69 chassis and 75 bearing and platter. The arm is an LAD, made by Jelco many years ago which I modified to take a straight a tube.


image.jpeg
 
tnsilver said:
@waj4all, your enthusiasm made me wanna take out the L75 out of storage and stick in near the TD-125 for a one on one session... I've grown wiser over the years than falling for that with the SL-1200 (which proved futile for the Techie), but no one had spoken so convincingly of the Lenco before, so I guess I'll be busy over the next few days. I'll post some pics later, after I mount the same VMS cart on both.
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Ha, ha!

Glad to hear it, tnsilver. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that, if time permits your intended comparo. Hope it’s not too much trouble, as I was seeking the views of those who’d already made the comparisons, but if the music (and scientific exploration in the interest of the advancement of human-kind) motivates you to do it, then you won’t hear any discouraging arguments from me.

But what is it about this hifi-bug we’ve all been smitten with, to some degree or other? I, for one, am always looking for the next great excuse to play my own main system (to compare TTs, test a new amp, or simply to promote ‘world-peace’).

And, even if there’s no excuse, I play it anyway.

I strongly suspect it’s the same for others who’ve really been severely bitten by this bug.

Chops54 said:
Thank you waj4all....The Lenco has a gutsy sound with the ability to project itself into the room but the Thorens is more articulate and I might say it sounds more truthful. The Lenco holds its speed very well and I think it does piano better than a belt drive deck. However I feel that even though I can't hear it I sense the Lenco adds some noise to the mix which gives the music that drive and energy. I built a Lenco for a friend a fair while ago and he's into heavy metal, death metal? Anyway he loves it and with this type of music it displays some real authority. The Thorens on the other hand just plays nice music. With a decent arm and cartridge it just disappears and you can get on with listening to the music. I can't be more specific than that as my turntables have different arms and cartridges and several are stored away. Anyway here's a Lenco I built using a 69 chassis and 75 bearing and platter. The arm is an LAD, made by Jelco many years ago which I modified to take a straight a tube.

View attachment 1481408
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Couldn't have said it better miself. Yor findings coincide almost exactly with mine, with the only exception being that I also thought there were significant tonal differences in the mids, especially with the reproduction of voices. (Perhaps there'll be other comments in that particular regard). But don't worry too much about not using the same arms & carts, as my own tests featured exactly the same arms & carts and I found the same things you mentioned.

I also sense in your response that you'd prefer not to be without either of these two great TTs - and the situation is exactly the same here in my own case.

Regarding the pic; great example of 'Lenco-creativity,' BTW.

Enjoy the music!
 
Thank you those kind words waj4all. Yes you're quite right that I've no desire to part with any of my turntables. I know that one day when I get to a certain point in my life I will have to consider letting most of them go but for now it's a hobby I enjoy very much. I'd just like to show you one more picture of my own turntable. If I could only keep one deck this would be it. I intend to rebuild it with my own bearing and platter after I retire.

image.jpeg
 
Impressive-looking rig. I can only guess at its origins, though. Acoustic-Solid? Avid? Scheu?

No!

None of the brands I can think of seem to fit. I'm stumped. I'd bet it sounds as good as it looks, though. Curious as to how much better it is (and in what ways) than your 125 Thorens and especially your modded Lencos (which obviously have Class A potential).

Enjoy!
 
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@Chops54 It's a beauty! More photos please: detail close-ups, angles etc. And please describe some technical details, including the elegant tonearm. I can see you've added isolation feet, but the pic raises so many questions. Such as: you say you'll design a new bearing — what is the current bearing like? Bearings are a whole story on their own...

Many of us aren't satisfied with so-called reviews about "firm bass", "airy highs", etc. We care about the nuts and bolts, and the laws of Physics. I know I'm asking you for time and work: I hope you're up for it. If it's a brand(s) with good literature, that'll do fine!
 
Thank you for the enthusiastic replies. Ok, where to start. Eight maybe nine years ago I acquired a Clearaudio platter and bearing from someone who had carried out an upgrade. I built a simple three eared acrylic turntable using these parts and went with a Maxon dc motor and tape drive using cassette leader tape. I then went with thread drive and preferred it and still use it today. I built a simple dc speed controller with the help of two colleagues and that has also stood the test of time. I then made a twelve inch tonearm from the remains of a Project arm which meant I had to make a new subchassis. I made this from eight layers of Dibond, an aluminium and polyethylene sandwich. It was ok but I felt it robbed the music of air and space. It sounded shut in so I built another chassis from birch ply. It was 50 mm thick and sounded quite nice and it stuck with that until a couple of years ago when I made the steel chassis. In the meantime I turned a large piece of aluminium and bolted it to the underside of the acrylic platter to give it some more mass. The bearing now sits up inside the aluminium ring on a piece of acrylic 30mm thick and 100mm in diameter. Things were starting to sound good. I had also machined a motor pod from aluminium and then machined a solid lump to raise it when the deck became taller. So now I decided to make a new tonearm which is the one you see in the picture. I made it all apart from the Rega tonearm lift and the Technics arm rest clip. The arm can be adjusted for length and azimuth and there is a slight amount of variable offset. The trick with this arm is that instead of having a bearing either side of the horizontal and vertical axis both pairs of bearings are together on the same side. It works very well and I just love it. I aim to make another when I have some time and get it properly anodised and all polished up etc. The final step was to put another Clearaudio platter on top of the first so I machined up a spindle adapter and there you go. There are six cork discs between both platters and I use a thin rubber mat on top. I've had some good cartridges in there too. Benz Wood, Benz Ace, AT33PGT, DL103 and R, Kontrapunkt A and B and a couple of others that slipped my mind but those days are over and a Denon 110 fits the bill nicely. Ok it doesn't have the finesse or detail of some of those other carts but after a while you get used to what you're hearing and you adjust to it. The Denon suits me just fine now. That's the burn in period that the slurpers love so much! Anyway enough from me for tonight. Here's another pic for you. Apologies for poor quality. I'll take some more tomorrow.


image.jpeg
 
Awesome!!!

No wonder we couldn't guess at the brand.

It's a Chops54 - Signature-Edition.

You're obviously a genius to design and build something so impressive, obviously outperforming the likes of a Thorens 125LB and modded Lencos (since you apparently prefer it to these). Still curious as to how your creation compares with these more widely-known units, but I suppose we can wait patiently 'til the morrow to 'hear' the answer to that when you post those other pics you mentioned.

In the meantime, congrats on your fine build of a truly impressive-looking TT which rivals the appearance (at least) of the likes of Avids & Acoustic-Solids.

Perhaps you should seriously consider manufacturing this "Chops54" after retiring. Ha, ha. (I laugh, but I think you already demonstrated serious abilities in this regard).

Enjoy the music!
 
Thanks for the kind words and enthusiasm but there are people on this and other forums I frequent who are far more capable than I am. Some of their work is unbelievably good and I get a lot of my understanding and desire to do better from such as this. Their efforts make mine look decidedly amateurish but I don't mind. That's part of the fun and drives me to do better.
My next turntable will be all my own work with no borrowed parts. It will have a conventional bearing, ie not inverted as is the current trend so it retains its lubricant. The bearing construction is a bit special in that it reduces the contact area between bearing sleeve and shaft. That's as much as I'm saying for the moment. I will tell you though that the platter will be magnetically levitated. I have the acetal platter ready for machining. It's currently just over 100mm thick so should be down to the magic number after finishing. The platter will sit into the subchassis with maybe 30mm protruding to keep the weight below the suspension. The suspension medium will be silicone fluid and will decouple the deck from its supporting platform. I just need to find a company that can mould the bellows to take the fluid at a reasonable cost. My current turntable is on roller bearings and I think I'll move that across to the new table as I feel it's been worthwhile. That's about it for now. I doubt progress will be that quick as I have a lot on the go but I am in the process of cutting down my working hours so we'll see how it goes.
 
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