Looking for something to primarily play 78s on...ADVICE NEEDED

[Gilgamesh]

I apologize for posting once again on the subject of record players for playing 78 rpm records, but after doing some more research it appears that the recommendations I received in my first thread on here would not satisfy my needs.

I am looking for a record player that would be good for playing 78 rpm records on. That is probably the only thing I would be using it for as I have little interest in anything besides early twentieth century music. I do not know much about record players (this will be my first one), but before I became too busy with college to pay any attention to the matter I had been reading an obscene amount of information about them online. I've unfortunately forgotten much of it but I put a lot of the recommendations from the pages I read into a text file and I'll just put down what I had typed there. These are some specifications that are more or less essential for my purposes.

-Variable speed control from 60 to at least 100 rpm (for all the records that weren't cut at exactly 78 rpm)

-Able to switch between vertical and lateral records

-Able to play Pathe records

I probably also need recommendations as to phono preamp, cartridges, styli (truncated conical and elliptical), loudspeakers, graphic equalizer, etc. as I do not have any of that stuff, either. For the cartridges, the text file recommends Stanton 500 AL, Stanton 750 AL (P mount), Shure M44, Shure SC35, or Ortofon Pro. Stereo, not mono. For the styli, it says to get various truncated conical and elliptical styli for the different kinds of records out there. The phono pre-amp should have non-RIAA equalization or a "flat" setting or alternatively I would get a graphic equalizer (10 band minimum) to cancel out the RIAA curve. I have no idea what that last sentence even means anymore but it's right there in the text file so I guess it must be important.

Actually, I am wondering if it might not be a good idea to forego a more modern turntable and instead pick up an antique phonograph or two. I've been reticent to even consider an antique as most of the sites I've read seem to generally advise against it, but there are some flea markets and antique stores in a nearby town that have some antique phonographs that look like they might be good deals. The first one that caught my interest is a Brunswick phonograph that apparently works (the guy who owned it wasn't there at the time but from what I understand it seems like he might be someone who actually knows something about these things and can take care of them, unlike everyone else I've dealt with who can't tell me a damn thing about what they're selling) and looks like it is in at least decent condition. I can't say exactly which kind it is, but it looks like the phonograph on this eBay page.

He's selling it for $350, I believe. Is that a fair price? Would it fulfill the requirements I outlined above? If it does, it would be very tempting to get it as I imagine it would look quite nice in my study.

Lastly, I went to another antique shop and I found an Edison Diamond Disc C19 (Chippendale) Phonograph that looks like it's in pretty decent condition as well. I've been assured that it plays (the guy who owns it has apparently played records on it from time to time) and it even comes with the key and the manual. The storage space inside it is also almost completely filled up with Edison records. I know that the C19 only plays Edison records so I would have to get something else to play the other records that I'd like to play, but he's selling this phonograph and all the records for only $250 and that seemed like it might be a pretty good deal. I looked it up on eBay and it seems like it's going for a LOT more than that (like $800-$900). What do you think?

If I decided to get an antique phonograph, what should I know about taking care of it and playing the records properly on them? What sorts of items should I get besides the phonograph itself? I think I read that one should replace the needle every time one plays a record on them (because of how heavily they track, if I remember correctly). Is that true? Also, should I decide to digitize my records, how would I go about doing that if I am playing them on an antique phonograph? Is it even possible? If you have any web resources that you feel would be very helpful to me, please send the links my way.

Thank you in advance for all the advice. I'm sorry for asking so much. It is clear that I am going to have to review all of those sites I visited as after a month of doing nothing but studying for finals I am now only vaguely familiar with much of this stuff. It is so much to take in all at once!

 

[beatcomber]

If you're going to buy an antique and actually USE it, you'd better know how to maintain and repair it. Old stuff breaks down a LOT. I wouldn't expect the finest reproduction from an antique - until the '70s, most turntables were frankly pretty bad (with a few notable high end exceptions).

I don't know what your budget is or how deeply you want to get into the esoterica of 78 playback... There are many expensive options available, ie: fancy archival preamps, varieties of aftermarket styli for common cartridges, etc. You could easily spend several thousand dollars on just the table, styli and preamp.

I own many hundred 78s, and to tell you the truth, I get perfectly acceptable playback using a '60s Dual 1019, Shure M78S cartridge, and a standard RIAA preamp.

 

[BrocLuno]

My Audio Technica PL120 turntable has built in 78 speed and 20% up or down speed adjustment. Mine is pre-USB and I don't use the somewhat noisy (signal noise) built-in RIAA phono amp.

It takes headshells, so you can buy them in any weight you need from 7 grams to about 19 grams to make a 78 cartridge run well. I primarily use a Grado 78C cartridge, but there are a LOT of other options. Some cartridges allow easy stylus swaps so you can go from a 1 mil conical to a 3 or 4 mil conical without messing up your set-up. If it were me, I'd just mount a set of cartridges in their own headshells and mark them for stylus size and shape.

I'd pump the signal into an older tube phono section that had been all gone through by a pro. Some of those older phono amps have a myriad of correction curves and that would be very helpful

 

[bobaloniny]

Sounds like youre willing to go all out on the project, sounds exciting. I mess with some 78s a little, but havent gone to the lengths described. Though I have a 1019, I dont use it for 78s, I use a 1010 with a Dual 650 ceramic cart which seems to work just fine. If one desired the infinite speed thing then maybe a Lenco/Bogen L70?
I can understand the M44 recommendation, I have an M44-7 and it will track where others fear to tread.
As I recall from my youth, it seemed that you could get more than one play out of an Edison needle. IIRC it was more like 5 or more, depending on the condition of the record. The one that I recall was a floor standing unit (alot like the Brunswick but only as wide as the record player itself). Horn of course built into the cab.I suppose if one were very discerning with sound quality(as much as possible considering the medium) then changing after one record would be the way to get optimum results, sounds expensive though.
As per digitizing...from an Edison or Brunswick..my guess would be you would have to mic it, certainly nothing to plug into.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Either get a Lenco heavy platter model, a Technics SP-10 Mk III, or a Technics SP-15. All 3 do what you need., all 3 loved by those who transfer such discs for a living. Rek-O-Kut 12" tonearm and you're good to go.

 

[cactuscowboy]

I'm using a Technics SP-15 and a Technics SL-1200 (with 78 rpm modification) to play 78s. The SP-15 is great with its plus/minus 10% pitch control and digital readout. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better player for 78s.

I use Stanton 500 cartridges with diamond elliptical stylii ranging from 2.0 to 4.0 mil. I have one cartridge wired with one channel out-of-phase (blue & white headshell wires reversed) for playback of vertical cut records.

I also use a Bugle Pro variable EQ phono preamp.

I would not consider using an antique wind-up acoustic player. Modern equipment is much gentler on the records and the sound quality is superb.

 

[beatcomber]

I use Stanton 500 cartridges with diamond elliptical stylii ranging from 2.0 to 4.0 mil. I have one cartridge wired with one channel out-of-phase (blue & white headshell wires reversed) for playback of vertical cut records.

Interesting idea!

 

[Urchinn]

Easiest way is to get the Stanton T-90 table. 78 speed (and excellent variable speeds), built like a funky plastic/metal tank. It features a built in phono stage/preamp (not bad, but you don't have to use it if you don't want to), and USB connection (which I have not used). This inexpensive table will coax all the fidelity available out of your discs. Vintage-wise, I'd go with a Lenco...but they are selling for as much as a SP-15 these days?!?!

 

[guiller]

Regarding TTs: I use a dedicated Dual 1019 and feel happy about it. I' ve been also considering a Lenco L-75.

Regarding the phono preamps, there is a related thread here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=348114

 

[KentTeffeteller]

T 90 is not as good as what I recommmend for this job. Which is used by archivist professionals the world over. Who transfer 78 RPM discs for a living.

 

[Urchinn]

I'm not sure I agree, Kent! There is only so much fidelity available on a 78. A well-chosen stylus/cart on a Stanton T-90 will provide 99.9999999999% as much musical information as the same stylus/cart on any other table. For less dollars, too. Save your money for a good restoration program...

 

[gmku]

Out of curiosity... on an SL-1200, using 45rpm and adjusting the pitch control all the way up, how close would this bring the speed to 78rpm?

 

[DougMac]

Bugle

I also use a Bugle Pro variable EQ phono preamp.

Did you build your Bugle? I'm thinking of building a Bugle with no EQ, since I apply it in software.

To the OP, I advise against playing on antique phonographs. They won't sound as good as possible and will really wear your records.

It's amazing how good a properly restored 78 can sound. Get a good modern turntable (I use the Technics SP-15) and good restoration software. I use DC Art. I've also tried Adobe Audition, which I plan to purchase. I'll use it in conjuction with DC Art.

Don't worry too much about pitch control, you don't need such a wide range. There's very little documentation about correct speed, outside Pathe's being recorded at 80 rpm. If you don't know the original speed, any adjustment on your part is a WAG.

 

[beatcomber]

Out of curiosity... on an SL-1200, using 45rpm and adjusting the pitch control all the way up, how close would this bring the speed to 78rpm?

Not close enough...

 

[gmku]

Not close enough...

But close?

 

[js1138]

Don't worry too much about pitch control, you don't need such a wide range. There's very little documentation about correct speed, outside Pathe's being recorded at 80 rpm. If you don't know the original speed, any adjustment on your part is a WAG.


I'm wondering if a plug-in like Autotune, or one of the spectrum analysis tools wouldn't help you determine the correct speed. That or having perfect pitch.

I have a couple of spoken word records that are close to 78, but say play at slower speed. I suspect the field recording gear was never calibrated.

 

[carlvalle]

i have a stanton T-80 which has 78 +/- 20% and a straight tone arm that will track anything you can throw at it. My older s arm would sometimes get thrown out of the groove, especially at the weird end groove. [may not be a problem] but the anti skate at 78 rpm with 5 grams VTF is awesome amount. I use a Ortofon S Pro [dj scratch cartridge] tracking at 6 grams and wired mono. Seems to work pretty well. I use Sound Forge and NR2 and digitize with a Behringer UCA202 with an ART preamp. The only acoustic records i ever recorded, i just used a vintage edison and microphones, but i was after the sound of the machine, not of the recording.

 

[Gilgamesh]

If you're going to buy an antique and actually USE it, you'd better know how to maintain and repair it.

Okay, I think I'll hold off on the antique phonographs, at least for now. Out of curiosity, though, how difficult would it be to learn how to repair and maintain them? Could I easily find resources on the Internet to learn more about it? Maybe I could get into that sort of thing one day...

Modern equipment is much gentler on the records and the sound quality is superb.

Is damage to the records still a problem even if you replace the needle with every play? And I thought that a properly restored/in good condition antique could sound pretty good.

You could easily spend several thousand dollars on just the table, styli and preamp.

I'd actually like to spend less than $1000 on everything, at least for now.

I own many hundred 78s, and to tell you the truth, I get perfectly acceptable playback using a '60s Dual 1019, Shure M78S cartridge, and a standard RIAA preamp.

Don't worry too much about pitch control, you don't need such a wide range. There's very little documentation about correct speed, outside Pathe's being recorded at 80 rpm. If you don't know the original speed, any adjustment on your part is a WAG.

The SP-15 is great with its plus/minus 10% pitch control and digital readout. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better player for 78s.

Okay, there's something I'm not getting here. So you guys are saying that the pitch control doesn't matter much? That I will still be able to play any "78 rpm" record out there using an SP-15 with only +/- 10% pitch control? Even Pathe records? Then why does the guy on this site act like it is such a huge deal to have a turntable with a very wide pitch control range? He says that early Pathe records were recorded at 100 rpm for example. I've even seen pictures of record sleeves belonging to Pathe records and they're all like "You better play this from between 90 and 100 rpm." Could an SP-15 produce good quality playback on records like that? I came away from reading that page with the impression that there are a million and one tiny details that I have to keep in mind when considering a turntable for playing 78s and that I had better get them all right or else it will ****...everything...up...and it'll be as if I totally wasted my money and probably I will wish that I had never been born. I was actually going to get a Dual turntable like I was recommended in the first thread I made on here but then I stumbled across that guy's website and totally freaked out like "OH MY GOD EVERYTHING IS WRONG NO WAY CAN I PLAY 78s ON THIS TURNTABLE PITCH CONTROL EARLY PATHE RECORDS VERTICAL/LATERAL SELECTOR SWITCH TRACKING FORCE RIAA EQUALIZATION HAUFLERGLARGHEAGHEGHEFSHSSSHSH." However not only are there people in this thread telling me not to worry too much about the pitch control, but also beatcomber says that he gets decent playback with a standard RIAA preamp. Oh man, what is going on?

Also, does the SP-15 have a vertical/lateral selector switch, or is that another thing I don't have to worry about?

Would this be a good deal on the Technics SP-15? It says it doesn't have the plinth, tonearm, or cartridge, but it wouldn't be a problem to find those, would it? In fact, would this plinth that held a SP-25 fit the SP-15?

good restoration software. I use DC Art. I've also tried Adobe Audition, which I plan to purchase. I'll use it in conjuction with DC Art.

What would be a good restoration software for Macs? I have a Windows partition on my computer, but I'd rather not switch to it unless I have to.

 

[soundman2]

If you are looking for a way of playing 78's then why do what I did. There is a posting on here by eb2jim and he added 78 on his Technics SL-D2 by adding a switch, 2 lengths of wire and 56K resistor...and kept 33 and 45. You solder each wire to the ends of R7 on the board (this is the 45 side of the deck) and I added my resistor at the switch. Using the pitch control to dial in the speed.....away you go!

I can tell you this works brilliantly and does not take much effort to do. The only large cost you have is the 78 cart (M78S) by Shure

 

[DougMac]

The Article You Read

Okay, there's something I'm not getting here. So you guys are saying that the pitch control doesn't matter much? That I will still be able to play any "78 rpm" record out there using an SP-15 with only +/- 10% pitch control? Even Pathe records? Then why does the guy on this site act like it is such a huge deal to have a turntable with a very wide pitch control range? He says that early Pathe records were recorded at 100 rpm for example. I've even seen pictures of record sleeves belonging to Pathe records and they're all like "You better play this from between 90 and 100 rpm." Could an SP-15 produce good quality playback on records like that? I came away from reading that page with the impression that there are a million and one tiny details that I have to keep in mind when considering a turntable for playing 78s and that I had better get them all right or else it will ****...everything...up...and it'll be as if I totally wasted my money and probably I will wish that I had never been born. I was actually going to get a Dual turntable like I was recommended in the first thread I made on here but then I stumbled across that guy's website and totally freaked out like "OH MY GOD EVERYTHING IS WRONG NO WAY CAN I PLAY 78s ON THIS TURNTABLE PITCH CONTROL EARLY PATHE RECORDS VERTICAL/LATERAL SELECTOR SWITCH TRACKING FORCE RIAA EQUALIZATION HAUFLERGLARGHEAGHEGHEFSHSSSHSH." However not only are there people in this thread telling me not to worry too much about the pitch control, but also beatcomber says that he gets decent playback with a standard RIAA preamp. Oh man, what is going on?

Also, does the SP-15 have a vertical/lateral selector switch, or is that another thing I don't have to worry about?

Let's see if I can put some things in perspective. I've been listening to 78's since I discovered my grandfather's records in a cabinet at our house back in the late '50's. I started collecting 78's in the early '70's and have ~3,500. I read the article you linked to. I agree with some of what he says, but not all.

Let's talk about speed, starting with the "early Pathes" recorded at 100 rpm. In my 40 years of collecting, I've never seen one. I did check the auction site and you can buy them, but they are expensive. I think you'd have to be a pretty esoteric collector to shell out $50+ for an early Pathe. I have several Pathes, all recorded at 80 rpm. As the article pointed out, speeds were standardized pretty early and only the very early acoustics vary widely in speed. I agree with the article, if the speed isn't clearly marked or the record doesn't start with a standard tone (some early recordings did), you're pretty much on your own. Concert "A" wasn't standardized until the '30's, after 78 speeds were standardized, so you don't know the orchestra's tuning. You also don't know the key they chose to play. The vast majority of my collection is records from the early '20's to the late '30's. I only change speeds for my Edisons and Pathes and a some late 00's and early teens and then I just adjust until it sounds right. That's less than 10% of my collection.

As far as vertical cut records go, again it's my Edisons and Pathes that make up less than 5% of my collection. I don't have a vertical/lateral switch. If I want to hear them, I transcribe them and change the signal in software. DC Art makes it easy.

I handle equalization two ways. If I'm auditioning a disk or I just want to listen casually, I use a flat phono pre-amp and send the signal to a small mixer with EQ controls. If it's acoustic, I usually just attenuate the treble to lower the hiss. There's no music above ~4k anyway. With later records, I just cut the highs a little and boost to the bass. If I'm restoring, I transcribe flat and apply the appropriate EQ using software. Electrical recordings started inching towards what ended up as the RIAA EQ. Late '40's/early '50's 78's sound fine with standard RIAA EQ. Early electricals, especially before 1930, sound much better with proper EQ, not RIAA. Of course, acoustics have no EQ.

If you want to restore, you will have fewer hardware and software options for the Mac. Look into a good USB sound card. I'd suggest Adobe Audition, which is available for Mac. I auditioned the PC version and found it does a really good job with standard restoration tasks, removing clicks, pops, crackle and continuous noise (hiss). If someone in your family is an educator, you can get a the fully functional academic version at a big discount.

I suggest you start simple. You could start with a Dual, I used one for years. Duals can be finicky in their old age, you'll have to find one in good working order. Buy local unless you can really trust the auction seller to pack well. Many a nice turntable has been destroyed in shipping because of bad packing. You can look for a Technics SP-15, but you'll probably pay north of $500 for one with a tonearm and base. I know some people will squawk, but you might consider the Audio Technica AT-LP that goes for ~$200 or the Stanton ST 150 that sells for $500.

Pre-amps get trickier. You can get a decent flat pre-amp at Tracertek for ~$100. Add a small mixer with EQ and just adjust highs and lows. You can also just use a receiver with a phono pre-amp and not worry about the RIAA.

I think a lot will depend on what you want to collect. Tell us more about your interests.