SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
That may be over the entire audible spectrum. Some claim doubling at 1 kHz, which is an easy frequency. I would still want this as the power reserve will provide margin against sag which can be heard as compression.
Low efficiency vs. high efficiency speakers?
- Thread starter sonix
- Start date
That may be over the entire audible spectrum. Some claim doubling at 1 kHz, which is an easy frequency. I would still want this as the power reserve will provide margin against sag which can be heard as compression.
Helmuth
Active Member
Horn colouration they say. No one mentions the poor detail of a low efficient driver they have a lot colouration. I know I build both and measured the results.
A good horn has very low distorsion and very good impulse behaivour. A horn should be short to prevent colouration so one can design that out.
Low efficient means a lot of energy storage in your loudspeaker system. I personally doesn't like that idea. You need big cables a a good damping amplifier to absorb this energy and a passive filter will prevent to have enough damping for good detailed low. The resistance of the low pass filter is about 0,4 Ohm. So damping factor 8/0,4=20X . One can buy a big amp with a damping factor of 500X but not be able to damp more then 20!
With a horn you will have much less distortion than with high end low efficient. Butt people tent to like to hear distortion. A HF-horn driver wil have 0,03% 2-3thrd harmonic at 110dB! not at 90dB.
At 90dB they will perform even better!
I am building a triode PP-amp 10W and a horn >105dB 1W.http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=274102
The horn will have extreme low distortion and the triode will have about 1% distortion at 1W but the speaker will play very loud. So at normal 90db level the amp will be playing on 10mW and THD<<1%. So this combination will have good efficiency and tube sound with low THD. Better THD figure then low efficient systems how tent to colour a lot in most cases due energy storage and poor damping of the loudspeaker system.
(A tube sounds better IMO, because they have very good HF behaivour what is a poor of a LF power transistor.)
So my message high efficient hornsystem with tube-amp can out perform low efficient systems on THD and also very important impulse behaivour so you can hear more detail.
That is why tube lovers believe their ears, and their ears are right.
Efficiency of your loudspeaker at 1 watt 1meter
85dB 1Wmtr = 0,19% High energy storage in your speakersystem
90dB 1Wmtr = 0,63%
95dB 1Wmtr= 2%
100dB 1Wmtr= 6,3%
105dB 1Wmtr= 20% also very low energy storage at that kind of levels.
110dB 1Wmtr= 63% also very low energy storage at that kind of levels.
A good horn has very low distorsion and very good impulse behaivour. A horn should be short to prevent colouration so one can design that out.
Low efficient means a lot of energy storage in your loudspeaker system. I personally doesn't like that idea. You need big cables a a good damping amplifier to absorb this energy and a passive filter will prevent to have enough damping for good detailed low. The resistance of the low pass filter is about 0,4 Ohm. So damping factor 8/0,4=20X . One can buy a big amp with a damping factor of 500X but not be able to damp more then 20!
With a horn you will have much less distortion than with high end low efficient. Butt people tent to like to hear distortion. A HF-horn driver wil have 0,03% 2-3thrd harmonic at 110dB! not at 90dB.
At 90dB they will perform even better!
I am building a triode PP-amp 10W and a horn >105dB 1W.http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=274102
The horn will have extreme low distortion and the triode will have about 1% distortion at 1W but the speaker will play very loud. So at normal 90db level the amp will be playing on 10mW and THD<<1%. So this combination will have good efficiency and tube sound with low THD. Better THD figure then low efficient systems how tent to colour a lot in most cases due energy storage and poor damping of the loudspeaker system.
(A tube sounds better IMO, because they have very good HF behaivour what is a poor of a LF power transistor.)
So my message high efficient hornsystem with tube-amp can out perform low efficient systems on THD and also very important impulse behaivour so you can hear more detail.
That is why tube lovers believe their ears, and their ears are right.
Efficiency of your loudspeaker at 1 watt 1meter
85dB 1Wmtr = 0,19% High energy storage in your speakersystem
90dB 1Wmtr = 0,63%
95dB 1Wmtr= 2%
100dB 1Wmtr= 6,3%
105dB 1Wmtr= 20% also very low energy storage at that kind of levels.
110dB 1Wmtr= 63% also very low energy storage at that kind of levels.
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According to John Eargle's Loudspeaker Handbook (and keep in mind that Eargle designed horn systems at JBL) a good dome tweeter has less distortion than horn tweeter. I was surprised to read that but I'm not qualified to dispute Eargle.
Helmuth
Active Member
Thier are many HF horn drivers that have THD at 1W at the same level as a high end dome driver only that one will have a SPL of 90dB and a HF horn driver about 110dB 1W.
People have problems to read the spec and compare the right way. Eargle also probably or it is a old statement.
Helmuth
Active Member
Example.
Low budged horn with driver of eminence. THD at the same level as a High end dome driver , >2kHz <0,3% at 85dB. But with super horn impulse behaviour.
See the super 3th harmonic at 100dB.
A good tip for people how can't spend a lot on top HF horn drivers
Low budged horn with driver of eminence. THD at the same level as a High end dome driver , >2kHz <0,3% at 85dB. But with super horn impulse behaviour.
See the super 3th harmonic at 100dB.
A good tip for people how can't spend a lot on top HF horn drivers
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The book was written only a few years ago and is quite comprehensive. I'm pretty sure Eargle knew what he was talking about and his credentials were stellar.
I gave the book back to the original owner otherwise I'd quote it for you.
Helmuth
Active Member
You shout not dictate a book but try to understand what is happening.
When that author knows what he says then it is important in witch kind of context he means it. Because I can prove with my own HF-driver your statement is wrong. And it is not a JBL may be that explains a lot.
What I also did prove to you that the eapt150 is performing at the same level THD as a good dome tweeter. There are better ones on the market like B&C 18sound RCF selenium radian and so on.
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Maybe you should read Eargle; then you'll not only know what you're talking about but what he was talking about as well. You might learn something.
I'm not saying one way of the other, just opening the possibility that "common knowledge" about tweeter distortion may be wrong.
Eargle did acknowledge that horn tweeters are capable of higher output levels than domes.
Helmuth
Active Member
1) It's not constant directivity.
2) You'll lose 7.5 dB EQing it flat on axis.
3) And twice that getting it at 30°.
4) And HL14-50 is what sort of horn?
5) Beam on....
I see less data more wank zilch. Explain your self.
He's saying that the results are skewed. Look at your plot of the Eminence driver. In order to EQ it flat on axis you'll have to bring it down 7.5dB. If you want it flat out to 30 degrees, you'll have to come down another 7 or so to almost 90dB. Then you're right there with the dome.
dnewma04
The Healer
So, the detail destroying effects of power compression aren't a concern of yours? Or you just don't really listen to loud music?
Helmuth
Active Member
In the listening room the will destroy a nice flat response. So how important is it in a untreated room?
The selenium driver wasn't a good example I found a better one. Other wise music lovers will be misled.
HomeBody
Passion not Critisism
Exactly. But I envision large speakers with enough power being sent to them to facilitate a small community