Yes but what type of music do you listen to? Is it on vinyl, CD, and do you listen to the radio? There is so many factors involved that don't seem to get mentioned here. ie if it's vinyl are they analog or digital? What kind of table are you using? I think that there is truth to be told with low wattage amps/receivers sound better with 2 driver speakers.
Low-power vintage gear.
- Thread starter thunderroad
- Start date
Yes but what type of music do you listen to? Is it on vinyl, CD, and do you listen to the radio? There is so many factors involved that don't seem to get mentioned here. ie if it's vinyl are they analog or digital? What kind of table are you using? I think that there is truth to be told with low wattage amps/receivers sound better with 2 driver speakers.
MegaGroove
Active Member
Thanks! I will definitely keep that in mind.
Semanon
Super Member
Again, that begs the question: do vintage 2-way speakers sound better with low power because the drivers are smaller (or horns are used) or for some other reason?
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All of the above. Those older SS receivers take the edge off digital (most brands, at least). I actually find Spotify via Chromecast Audio though the AUX IN very pleasing on those older lower power receivers.
Even the phono stages were good on the cheaper models because that's most of what people listened to and they didn't take a lot of shortcuts (like the newer cheap receivers with phono stages in them).
And FM...even the cheapest 70's receiver sounds better than the crap FM chip tuners of almost everything modern.
But to the other posts here...sure, if you are looking to "energize" a room you need big power and big speakers. That's never changed. But if you want good sound at moderate levels a vintage 25WPC or so does a fine job.
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MegaGroove
Active Member
For a little levity - my Pioneer SX-737 coupled to ElectroVoice Dominators. Yes, the 35w Pioneer will "energize" the garage - just ask the neighbors.
View attachment 2040312
With the size of those speakers, I had a hard time finding the receiver.
usedto
Lunatic Member
All of my higher power equipment is Sansui. I bought the Pioneer years ago for $50 for my son to take to college. He bought a different system after graduation, and gave the Pioneer back. I wasn't a fan of the sound until I hooked it up in my 5000 sq ft warehouse to the EVs that I got at a government surplus sale. They were just made for each other. When we sold the place and bought a house in town, I decided to make that my garage system.With the size of those speakers, I had a hard time finding the receiver.
Needless to say we have fun with it.
Depends on your goals and what "sound" you like, or are listening to ...
But back when they were new, the lower powered Receivers didn't typically sound better than their higher powered siblings ..
I've been at this for fifty years ..
I owned and listened to every brand out there when I was younger and they were new ..
Brands may have had a house sound or flavor, which was slightly different one from another, but the difference was slight.
Most of those Japanese receivers were constructed with similar designs and parts quality and they tended to sound more like each than not ..
FWIW
There was lot more variation between the integrated amps and separates that were available .. than the receivers..especially from smaller manufacturers
But back when they were new, the lower powered Receivers didn't typically sound better than their higher powered siblings ..
I've been at this for fifty years ..
I owned and listened to every brand out there when I was younger and they were new ..
Brands may have had a house sound or flavor, which was slightly different one from another, but the difference was slight.
Most of those Japanese receivers were constructed with similar designs and parts quality and they tended to sound more like each than not ..
FWIW
There was lot more variation between the integrated amps and separates that were available .. than the receivers..especially from smaller manufacturers
MegaGroove
Active Member
That's interesting. What kinds of variation did you find with the integrated amps? What were the standouts?
3-Crows
Active Member
Just a curiosity but for example a Pioneer SX-820 (SX-3700) is rated at 45 WPC at .02% THD. I have a new Yamaha receiver rated at 100 WPC at .2% THD. My thought on this is that the old Pioneer if cranked could make more power than 45 watts but the THD would exceed the rating, but there was more power (Scotty!). How much more I do not know but the unit never seems strained to shake the house. And conversely though the new Yamaha unit has awful by comparison THD at rated power, if played at normal listening levels the THD would be much improved, perhaps comparable to the Pioneer when it (Yamaha) is at 40 to 50 watts output?
For a little levity - my Pioneer SX-737 coupled to ElectroVoice Dominators. Yes, the 35w Pioneer will "energize" the garage - just ask the neighbors.
View attachment 2040312
Yeah, those are borderline PA/live music speakers. It won't take much to get a lot of volume from them.
Any generalization by brand is going to be questionable ..
The Top of the the line integrated amps from any given manufacturer were sometimes a cut above the rest.. depending on the year etc.
They would sometimes make a signature piece, with a high quality phono stage, or include a dual mono, or class A amp at the top of the line which showcased their patented technologies .. The Top Of the Line integrateds were usually where they introduced their improvements.
You pretty much have to listen to the individual pieces to find the gems ..
It's easier to find good sounding pieces from the smaller, specialty manufacturers because they had only good sound to go on.. without it they went under.
Really? I would say that comparisons are quite valid if comparing stereo (2channel) amplifiers in the era following the establishment of the FTC's rules for power ratings.
charles 1973
Super Member
I agree.
The 80 wpc in stereo my new Yamaha AVR is rated is the same way as the 45 wpc that my 1976 Realistic STA 90 was I believe.
One difference is most vintage stereo recievers are stable into a 4 ohm load. That is they will happily power 2 pair of 8 ohm speakers in parallel all day without complaining. Where as Yamaha wants me to switch the amp into the low impedance setting which I'm guessing cuts power to perhaps 50 - 60 wpc.
That's in stereo, my guess is with all 5 channels operating simultaneously we're looking at about 30 wpc. While that may sound pathetic, considering how often all 5 channels will be called upon at the time, and the use of a sub for the heavy lifting, Even this entry level network AVR with 4+ star reviews seldom gets complaints about a lack of power.
birchoak
Hi-Fi Nut
Lower power units do NOT always have a cheaper build quality; it really depends on the time period. Marantz 2230: 30 watts and arguably one of the most sought-after receivers of the early 70's. Very well made. Sherwood S-7100A: something like 14 if I recall correctly and much better build quality than my massive, late 70's Scott 380R with 80 watts. One of the most cherished amps of all time, the Sansui AU-555A, tops out at 29 watts, I believe, and is better built than my Proton D1200 power amp, which is rated for 100 watts RMS.
The TOTL amps and receivers had more stuff crammed into them, sometimes causing overheating and can be more difficult to work on. I had a Luxman R-117 (160 watts RMS, capable of driving 2Ω loads) and no matter what speakers I tried I just couldn't warm up to the sound. Inside the thing was packed to the gills with parts and was decidedly not fun to work on, especially when the solder on the relay pins failed and I had to redo all of them. Yes, it would play loud, and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. The receivers I spend the most time listening to average 14 watts to 55 watts and I would pit their build quality against any TOTL unit from the late 70s.
The TOTL amps and receivers had more stuff crammed into them, sometimes causing overheating and can be more difficult to work on. I had a Luxman R-117 (160 watts RMS, capable of driving 2Ω loads) and no matter what speakers I tried I just couldn't warm up to the sound. Inside the thing was packed to the gills with parts and was decidedly not fun to work on, especially when the solder on the relay pins failed and I had to redo all of them. Yes, it would play loud, and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. The receivers I spend the most time listening to average 14 watts to 55 watts and I would pit their build quality against any TOTL unit from the late 70s.
3-Crows
Active Member
I see not everyone agrees with you. But that was not my question or intent, I am observing that through the same speakers played in the same room and same recording the old Pioneer seems as capable with no more discernible distortion at similar volume despite the disparity in specs. Like you, I would think there was probably some exaggeration or a different means of measuring then vs now but regardless, the machines are playing side by side and the old machine seems to be able to crank a little more volume before clipping or distorting. I could be fooled easily, my ears are not so good anymore. No worries, no big deal.
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Semanon
Super Member
Yes, someone with a good understanding of the meaning of the measurements could reasonably compare if an amp had sufficient power to drive a set of speakers to a specific level. But how about THD and other measures? That can be driven down with NFB or servos to extraordinarily low levels, but adds its own coloration. Crappy amps are sold at the audition sites with phenomenal specs and abysmal sound. Is everyone being honest, or are they pulling the best one off the line to test?
Specs are just a starting point, like going to the car dealer and knowing that you want a car that seats 5. That weeds out a lot of vehicles, but does not give any real information about the car you will eventually buy. It’s just one of the boxes to tick.
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Semanon
Super Member
No doubt this is true, and it shows my point that specs are not of great value. Why don’t they sound the way their specs say they should? Are the specs wrong, or did the specs fail to capture the real capabilities and qualities of the amp?
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