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Mac vs the Japanese

pmsummer said:
Brian, I have neglected to comment what a GREAT contributor you are to AK. Really. Depth, breadth, humility, fairness, and knowledge. Really. Thanks. :thmbsp:
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and, at least from the posts that I've read, you (Brian) don't get yourself drawn into the flame wars. those have been really annoying me lately, to the point where I've found myself avoiding reading posts by certain memebers, or stopping reading whole threads (when worse comes to worst). maybe i was naive when I posted this thread in the first place, but i wasn't expecting the animosity some obviously feel...
one of the things I liked about AK was how friendly everyone was, and how ready to help each other (god knows I've benefited from the advice and postings of plenty of you), so it kinda sucks when someone comes in and poops in the provebial cheerios.
I'm not saying that folks can't disagree w/ one another, heck, discussion breeds thought, which breeds innovation.... it's the manners (or lack there of) which bother me. I'm not pointing any fingers here, and there were plenty of folks on both sides of this thread at fault. so, thanks to the 99% of you who manage to some how be civil and interesting at the same time :thmbsp:
 
What color do you like red or white ? Its all subjective.
 
... it's the manners (or lack there of) which bother me. I'm not pointing any fingers here, and there were plenty of folks on both sides of this thread at fault. so, thanks to the 99% of you who manage to some how be civil and interesting at the same time
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I don't know if my comments on this thread fall in your %1 and I apologize if that's the case. My personality is direct so when I see someone make direct assertions that I "disagree" with (putting it nicely) I tend to respond in like kind and directly. People who really know me would agree that my manners are just fine though. Surely it's obvious to anybody that it's the nature of the beast when entering into discussions and debates about issues and hobbies that we are most passionate about that we are bound to, at one time or another, excercise our wit and sarcasm in a way that provokes. At least I am not suprised when it happens. :)
 
I doubt most people have even seen the better Japanese gear, so they're comparing McIntosh to the mass market Japanese gear they are familiar with. Here's a list of some vintage Yamaha gear that IMO is as good as any vintage McIntosh:

Amps: B-1, B-2, B-2x, CA-1000, MX-2000, MX-10000.
Preamps: C-1, C-2a, C-2x, CX-2000, CX-10000.
Tuners: CT-7000.
Receivers: CR-2020, CR-2040, CR-3020.
Turntables: PX-2, GT-2000.
CD Players: CDX-1100, CDX-2020, CDX-5000, CDX-10000.
Speakers: NS-1000, NS-2000, NSX-10000.
 
Brian said:
P
How many have owned a Mc unit and sold it because they did not like it?
How many have sold a Mc unit at a loss?
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That would be me. I had a Mac1900 and it just didn't do anything for me. I bought it from Echowars, and still it wasn't right. I sent it off to Terry Dewick, and I'm sure he brought it to spec.

But I just didn't care for it. I sold it off and lost my shirt.

I prefer my Yammie CR-1020 over the Mac1900.

I also flat out adore my Yammie B-2.

Funny thing though. I'm now using a McIntosh C712 as the pre to the B-2.
 
Arkay:

I would put my Japanese-made Epiphone Elite Les Paul (made at the Fuji Gen Gakki plant in Japan that also made the excellent Fender Japan guitars of the 80's, the Orville by Gibson line and many of today's high-end Gretsch guitars) above the standard-issue American-made Les Pauls, and closer to the Custom Shop and Historics that sell for 4-6x the $850 that I paid. All hard woods, long-tenon neck, bone nut...nothing but quality materials and excellent craftsmanship. I have one of those Fender Japan basses from the mid-80's, and she is simply fabulous. When you combine a tradition of Japanese quality with excellent, proprietary designs (like the stuff that Sansui, Yamaha and others were doing in the 70's and 80's), you have equipment that nobody needs to apologize for in any discussion.

Now, I am not going to argue whether or not McIntosh used better parts in their machines - they very well may have. I own several nice modern tube guitar amps...hand-made, point-to-point wiring and the like...not a circuit board to be found...so I appreciate high quality construction. However, the TOTL Sansuis, Yamahas, Kenwoods and the like were no slouch in construction, either...add some SOTA 21st-century capacitors, transisters and the like (as Glenn did when he rebuilt my unit), and you've got a pretty bitchin' unit. In fact, the Sanken output transistors that gave the AU-919 its sizzle are no longer made...so you can't even replicate the optimum performance that the Sansui engineers designed into the thing.

I appreciate what you are saying about American labor...it certainly costs more...but I guess that in terms of the quality of the labor and the quality of design, just because it is American labor and it costs more doesn't necessarily mean that it is any better than the Japanese.
 
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Thanks for the compliments guys. I'm in a confrontational professional and come here to unwind. This is all subjective and we enjoy what we do based on very different reasons. No one is right or wrong, just different. If there was only one right there would be only one model from one company for each component.

Relax, kick back and enjoy what you like and lust for more and better. I for one prefer a synergistic system over just a bunch of equipment from any particular company. I can be as happy listening to that b*tt ugly Grundig with the RS Minimus 7s as the Mc system on Bozaks depending on mood, what I'm doing and level of concentration. In the final analysis it is about listening pleasure, at least for me more than what I am listening with or through.

Good night all, I'm off to turn on the old Hallicrafters tube SW and listen enjoy something through my magnetic headphones.
 
No worries Elroy, and I really didn't want to point fingers. I've certainly been know to fly off before, though usually about politics or philosophY.

Mark B, have you ever had a chance to compare a ca-1000 to a ca-1010? either one of these would make the top of my silver-faced wish list based on looks alone, but i've never had a chance to hear one played.

I have long been a fan of yamaha's HT gear (my yammie ht receiver currently does double duty as my music rig also), and until recently my heart had been set on finding a ca-10xx to use as a pre into some big yammie power... then I ran across a youtube video put out by a fellow AKer demoing his Mac gear....followed quickly by discovering pics of a vintage pre (c28) with a blue metered amp, and my heart just skipped a beat. I was hoping to find out whether, in the case of Mcintosh, form followed funtion or visa-versa. And thus, where my money would be best spent. Had I sat and thought a bit before I hit the post button, I would have seen (one hopes) that this was an excersize in futility at best, and at worst, a damned fine way to stir the pot. Luckily, just earlier, I located a Mac dealer a few miles from me, and I plan to go next week and give 'em a good listenin' to. While I won't be able to compare it to the yamahas, I will at least know if the Mac sound is my cup of tea.
 
TejasRichard said:
Mark B, have you ever had a chance to compare a ca-1000 to a ca-1010? either one of these would make the top of my silver-faced wish list based on looks alone, but i've never had a chance to hear one played.
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The CA-1010 is practically indistinguishable from the CA-1000. Both are wonderful integrated amps. My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive, but a reasonable sample of the best vintage Yamaha gear.
 
Elroy said:
Some truth there but I would submit that a $60,000 Porsche is definately 95 percent the car of say a a $250,000 Lamborgini or Maserati. Point is the fellow you were answering is right on. It's true- a lot of the so called "exotic" gear being sold at astronomical prices today does not perform that much better than well chosen gear that can be bought for a fraction. Yeah, you get what you pay for but then again- a lot of people are paying a LOT more than they actually need to.
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Maybe, but who would not rather have a new lamborgini over a 5 year old porsche. A new porsche 911 is around 85 grand. for a base s. Anyway I have a Yamaha Rxv1 for my home theater. I know there is better but since home theater is mostly for dialogue, sound effects and background music I have not felt the urge to replace it yet. My 2 channel system is for more critical listening and thus higher end. I also have a pioneer receiver for my outdoor speaker where it is again less critical listening. I am not putting anyone down, but neither my yamaha or pioneer come anywhere near the mcintosh ! The imaging is better, I can close my eyes and the vocals give you goose bumps, you can even here the vocalist sometimes taking a breath between verses. The individual instrumentals are well defined. In one cd of the beatles, I could hear owls in the background of the song "Because" making sounds and flying around in the background, something I had never heard before with the yamaha or pioneer. I used to think my harmon kardin citation was so I good I would never need anything better, until I brought home my mcintosh and compared them. I know this sounds a bit unbelievable but it is true.
 
For those who like to use a screw driver and look inside...

http://www.pmillett.com/mcintosh_data.htm

Next I will look for some nudes.... From the limited pics I have seen in the past of the internals, I always felt the quality of the components & assembly were the key to their sound quality...but they don't have a monopoly on that. I guess the auto-former could be argued as being key too...if you like the idea of transformers on outputs, but they reduce dampening factor if you happen to have a set of speakers that need higher DF.

I have always felt that component/wiring quality, layout and assembly were the major keys to sound quality. I have never seen a truly great amp or preamp loaded with crappy parts.... I know my 500 is chocked full of great components/wiring....

On to finding a stash of Mac nudes....

OH... first googles of McIntosh nudes.... hehehehhehehe.... came up with a lot of great pics....just not of a stereo gear...which made me very happy too...:D...maybe should have included the word "stereo" in the search.



jk
 
Maybe, but who would not rather have a new lamborgini over a 5 year old porsche.
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2uberoller
Of course if you GAVE it to me, but the point I was trying to make with the analogy wasn't what I would prefer if it was GIVEN to me or even what I would buy if money was no object. The point was that in many instances (not always) you can indeed get gear that performs to %95 (and even %99) of the over priced premium name brand gear at a fraction of that price. And isn't that what we are all trying to do- get the BEST gear we can afford?

Now to thread topic: "Mac vs. Japanese". I personally think as I have mentioned previously that McIntosh enjoys a better reputation than it really deserves. Please hear me, I am not saying that they don't make excellent gear, I just don't think it deserves the "Rolls Royce" like status people have given it. I have come to this PERSONAL conclusion based on listening to a LOT of high end gear including McIntosh and from conversations with very reputable vintage techs. Futhermore, I often hear Accuphase referred to as the "Japanese McIntosh" This was a phrase coined in the 70s and was appropriate at Accuphase’s inception in the 70s- but in the 80s Accuphase left McIntosh way behind with their cutting edge innovation, world class reference engineering and astounding build and parts quality. I believe there are several factors that contribute to this "exaggerated reputation". For 1 as several have mentioned there is the whole “Made in America” thing and this is attractive to many Americans for obvious reasons but also even in for example Japan, it is very “chic” to be the proud owner of a such a slice if Americana as a McIntosh system. I also remember when I was a teenager in the late 70s the status McIntosh held and how it was the Holy Grail and the unobtainable dream for poor schleps like me and my friends in those days. I think there were a lot of frustrated teenagers like me and now we are all 40 something and able to finally realize that once “unobtainable dream”. McIntosh enjoys this kind of history and reputation probably more than any other brand I know of (interestingly, very similar to Harley Davidson)- but for me when put to the test I just realized McIntosh doesn’t measure up to their reputation.
 
Richard, the C28 is a very fine preamp. I bought mine new and it has been my mainstay since. Not a straight wire with gain nor the last word in detail and digging out the nuances of the music but at the time it came out, it was one of the best at any price. I've had it opened once in all the years for some caps and an upgrade of the jackset and rerouting of some of the cabling to make it more quiet.

I've had others on the shelf that excelled in some way but most have not been as good in a balanced manner. A C29 is probably a better pre as it is newer and by stripping out some of the flexibility of the C28 got less noise and better detail. I was going to upgrade to one but I did ot like the phono preamp in it quite as much. A number of Mc owners feel the C33 is the way to go for a Mc preamp in terms of balancing vintage with the updated Mc sonics.
 
McIntosh –vs. - the Japanese:

McIntosh products are very well designed, use the best quality components, best quality packaging and are assembled to the highest quality standards. The quality of McIntosh products remind me of test equipment such as Tektronix, Hewlett Packard and Fluke that I have used in the aerospace industry for the past 30 years. The three pieces of Mac gear that I’ve owned also sounded fantastic. Is this level of quality and cost really necessary for consumer electronics? I guess it depends on the individual.

Japanese stereo equipment is very good and the Japanese seem to have an uncanny ability to know where to cut corners and deliver a product that delivers high performance and reasonable cost. Are Japanese stereo products better than McIntosh? Probably not. But they do represent a good value.
 
For all the opinions.....I can say I'm neutral here....I have two Accuphase C200 preamps, one Accuphase P300 amplifier and one McIntosh MR 78 tuner.

Oops I just noticed I listed the Accuphase first.....Oh well.....
 
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