Marantz 2230 "Throw Down" What's all the Buzz?

[PB_Audio]

hey, I totally understand you're trying to help and it's much appreciated!

I'm just asking and probing as much as I can, BEFORE making any physical changes (and having to open her all up again)... as much as this is a hobby for me, I have very limited space & time for any work in my tiny apartment, so I avoid all the work I can... it's somewhat depressing to have fixed her all up, only to discover it's not the holy grail of receivers, at least for my ears and my speakers... to make things worse, I never even listened to it before the rebuild, since I just bought it and there was a weird electrical problem I didn't want to risk running it too long

my recap/rebuild was pretty carefully done, and I don't think anything too crazy was done, either in the slight mods I made, and all the parts were of decent quality and those used commonly by AKers in their rebuilds

in fact, in my 2275 rebuild, I used even "lesser" caps (mostly Panasonic FCs and orange films), and that turned out sounding very well... I also used bypass caps on the 2 filter caps... FCs on the power supply board

of course for the 2230, I also cleaned all the controls and switches with Dexoit, and even opened up all the pushbutton switches and added Deoxit Gold (the switch contact surfaces were dry but very clean and silver colored)... applied Faderlube to the pots (ASIDE: ...and "ruined" another Marantz volume control by spraying Deoxit inside, thus inadvertently flushing out that precious grease around the shaft and losing the smooth, tight rotary feel!!!)

stupid question 1:
how is it possible that the caps used on the power supply board affect the sound so much?... I thought this board simply provided electrical power (to be used by other parts of the circuit), and it wasn't in the audio path

stupid question 2:
I seem to have mediocre sound, whether my 2230 is used as preamp only, as an amp only, or combined as an integrated amp (normal)... is the power supply board involved in all 3 cases?... if so, could it (and the caps used here) be the main culprit?

thx

Maybe Pat will apply his particular brand of VooDoo to a Model 2275 next, and really make your day.
With the selective use of additional high quality films in critical locations, maybe Pat will even appreciate a more powerful receiver versus the lower powered 2220B, 2230 or 2215B he seems to prefer. Maybe...
I'm guessing that the requirement of numerous higher value electrolytic caps in the more powerful recever designs may be the reason some, particularly Pat, may prefer the lower powered receivers.
Might the selective substitution of film caps come to the rescue?
Or at least be part of the answer...
Jk has previously posted this excellent article about capacitors and their effect on the sonic characteristics of audio gear.
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf
Worth a careful read if you're serious about your receiver's 'Sound'.:thmbsp:

 

[gl1000honda3]

As promised her is a pic of the completed Preamp Board:

the pictured Elna cerafines have been replaced with Silmic II all else remains the same.

Nice job...very clean...

 

[Gibsonian]

After reading this thread and the other Marantz thread I put my 2230 back in my system after 6 months of being in my closet and was amazed how good it sounds very warm and musical definitely a keeper .

The power of suggestion is very strong.

 

[patfont]

Thank you for the very kind words, I learned everything right here on AK so do not count yourself out. I had a like experience trying to spray some belt dressing on a noisy belt, I over sprayed on the flat idler pulley and in cartoon fashion the belt flew off still spinning.:lmao:

This thread reminds me of several cruel truisms in my life.

1) I love seeing gear restored/improved like this. Amazing. However, I cannot hope to do it myself, as I have no patience, training, or technical ability.

2) I'm bound geographically to the audio equivalent of a "dead zone"....few good scores, and positively NO good repairmen/craftsmen of the caliber I see on AK.

3) I like automobiles, but just replacing a battery terminal yesterday, I nearly lost the tip of my finger. True story.

I love my passions, but they don't love me.


patfont, this is a goldmine of a thread. Thank you (from a techo-Luddite)

 

[patfont]

Hi PB,
If you look at my past threads you will see I have tried almost every imaginable film capacitor in place of the Marantz Films:
Mundorf Supreme
Mundorf MKP
Auricap
Amtrans
Obbligato
Solen
Vishay
Audio Cap
Multicap
Nichicon ES with Sonicap bypass
Solen with Sonicap bypass
Sonicaps Gen 1 and 2
etc, etc, etc

It is just my opinion that they are very hard to replace successfully they are actually very very good as ugly as some look. You would have to put in Mundorf Supreme and above Films to better them. And they are cost prohibitive are too large and the leads do not fit in a Marantz board and have to be drilled out. Careful balance of components used with attention to upgrading the power supply works well. The Marantz films are part of the magic and mysteque.

Maybe Pat will apply his particular brand of VooDoo to a Model 2275 next, and really make your day.
With the selective use of additional high quality films in critical locations, maybe Pat will even appreciate a more powerful receiver versus the lower powered 2220B, 2230 or 2215B he seems to prefer. Maybe...
I'm guessing that the requirement of numerous higher value electrolytic caps in the more powerful recever designs may be the reason some, particularly Pat, may prefer the lower powered receivers.
Might the selective substitution of film caps come to the rescue?
Or at least be part of the answer...
Jk has previously posted this excellent article about capacitors and their effect on the sonic characteristics of audio gear.
http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_2.pdf
Worth a careful read if you're serious about your receiver's 'Sound'.:thmbsp:

 

[PB_Audio]

The power of suggestion is very strong.

Amen!
+1:yes:

 

[PB_Audio]

Hi PB,
If you look at my past threads you will see I have tried almost every imaginable film capacitor in place of the Marantz Films:
Mundorf Supreme
Mundorf MKP
Auricap
Amtrans
Obbligato
Solen
Vishay
Audio Cap
Multicap
Nichicon ES with Sonicap bypass
Solen with Sonicap bypass
Sonicaps Gen 1 and 2
etc, etc, etc

It is just my opinion that they are very hard to replace successfully they are actually very very good as ugly as some look. You would have to put in Mundorf Supreme and above Films to better them. And they are cost prohibitive are too large and the leads do not fit in a Marantz board and have to be drilled out. Careful balance of components used with attention to upgrading the power supply works well. The Marantz films are part of the magic and mysteque.

I was specifically suggesting the application to a Model 2275.
The 'VooDoo' comment was a reference to your creative use of films in the lesser, lower powered receivers.
You know my bias in favor of adequate headroom to be able to get the best results from a broad selection of the best speakers, not often possible with the little guys, like your 2220B or 2230.
I have often seen the disasterous results of 'clipping' on a system, and particularly the speakers.

 

[Oerets]

Just pulled one of my 2230's out for a cleaning. Replaced it with a 2245 and to my ears the later sounded a tad nicer. Both bone stock and up to specs but that 2230 has something hard to describe.


Might have to check my stock on hand and do a recap once it's gets opened up.

Thanks for sharing!


Barney

 

[Rasputin47]

Pat, another very interesting and informative rebuild as usual :thmbsp:

I'm in the process of restoring my 2270 and although I have replaced the green films on the tone board with Panasonic films already, I plan on swapping them back in and compare the tone. PC has a sale on now so I may order those resistors as well to see how they sound as well.

BTW are you going to replace the transistors on the tone board while you are in there?

 

[patfont]

Pat, another very interesting and informative rebuild as usual :thmbsp:

I'm in the process of restoring my 2270 and although I have replaced the green films on the tone board with Panasonic films already, I plan on swapping them back in and compare the tone. PC has a sale on now so I may order those resistors as well to see how they sound as well.

BTW are you going to replace the transistors on the tone board while you are in there?

As to the transistors on the tone board, if all the voltages are correct and it is silent I leave them in. I think if you change them out you gain a whisker of calarity. As for the resistors I think you will fall in love. They are actually on back order from PC right now 4 weeks out, I have some on order, but place your order now so you get the 20% off.

 

[k2wo]

Pat, this is one of the best threads I've seen on AK. Of course, the fact that I am currently restoring a 2230 helps . Thanks for all the extra effort on photos, tips, guidance, etc. It is truly appreciated. People like you truly make AK the best.

 

[onwardjames]

Pat, this is one of the best threads I've seen on AK. Of course, the fact that I am currently restoring a 2230 helps . Thanks for all the extra effort on photos, tips, guidance, etc. It is truly appreciated. People like you truly make AK the best.

Here, here! :thmbsp:

 

[runningdog]

I've been fascinated by all the restorations documented by Patfont. I've purchased a 1060 and and 2230 for the express purpose of trying to duplicate his restorations.

Some poo-poo the replacement of components with anything more than what meets the spec. I get that, and honestly I fall into that category just because I've heard such great results from restorations that followed traditional paths of using modern caps at appropriate values. But...I don't have the audio ears that Patfont claims to have. And I don't dismiss those claims lightly. I don't claim to have the hearing needed to go through every single circuit board and replace caps until it sounds as good as possible. So I'm going to count my blessings that Patfont has done the work.

So...stay tuned. A 1060 and a 2230 coming up over the next couple of months. My best efforts to reproduce the results that Patfont has so carefully documented here. And I'll be playing them for all my friends and getting all the input I can get from people who have better hearing than mine.

 

[PB_Audio]

I believe that Pat gets into his restorations the way he does because he does have a good ear. After all, why go to all that trouble if you're unable to detect the difference, right? Of course, the issue of your receiver's reliability is another important consideration; but not to the extent where the sonic quality of the amp/receiver is compromised for a possible longer lasting cap or two.
If it's going to last a long time, I, for one, want maximum enjoyment for that long time.

 

[jstang]

Almost anyone can heard the difference....

The question is do they care enough to go the extra mile?

If you have heard the difference and care about it enough.... then you find the journey enjoyable.

 

[SupraTrooper]

As promised her is a pic of the completed Preamp Board:

the pictured Elna cerafines have been replaced with Silmic II all else remains the same.

I've also been recapping a 2230 on and off over the past few months, I've noticed a huge improvement in the sound:thmbsp: When I recapped the preamp board I did replace those big green film caps with Wima PP caps, Whoops! Hopefully I didn't toss 'em:nono:

Anyways this is a great thread about a great receiver I have a half-a$$ed "restore" thread over at TH if anyone cares to look.

Mistreated Marantz

 

[cwmartin]

Very nice restoration! Man that thing was pretty beat up. Too bad people to realize the value of these units.

 

[ssouci]

ok, I can see you are not happy with the rebuild. I have my own ideas and do not want to upset any ones apple cart but I will tell you what I would do since you are responding in this thread.

The power supply- Nichicon HE ok for now/Silmic II ideal
*******1st and easiest thing to do is clip off all of the bypass caps on the Nichicon KG's snip snip 6 times and you are done
*******Amp boards looks good but for C753 use a 10uf 35V Silmic II, and C751 use a Wima MKS2
*******All of the Panny Films on the preamp board have to go. Please put back the original marantz films that were on there the .22uf and the .47uf. Also loose the 1uf Panny films, and replace the mid ones with Silmic II or Silmic Bipolar, and the rear ones with Wima MKS4.
I can not see the phono board but put back the Marantz Films and what did you use for the 22uf caps? Again this is only my opinion and others may be animated about keeping the ECQ's, the marants films are very very good.

Snip the bypass caps off 1st. (You can duplicate what these are/may be doing better by upgrading the diodes on the P/S Board.
Then on to the preamp board which would be easiest, and see if you think that you are headed to a more favorable direction sonically. If you need any of the parts let me know.

If you do another one Mouser has the proper Nichicon KG's at 35mm for the coupling caps, and either parts Connexion or Michael Percy has the 35mm for the power cap, you just add a 35mm clamp from Mouser or parts Connexion and all looks pretty.

EUREKA!!!!!... PROBLEM SOLVED, my 2230 is finally sounding respectable!

yesterday, I pulled the top and bottom covers, and just stared at the insides, looking at all the connections and cables, etc., and thinking about what might be amiss, or what I might be able to still try

everything looked good, nice and clean and all those beautiful new caps, carefully installed... I re-checked the power supply board voltage, and then re-adjusted the idle current and clipping level adjustments (after the unit had been running a while)

Patfont, you got me thinking about those bypass caps on the 3 big can capacitors... the thing that jumps out is that they are NOT part of the original Marantz design, and from my research it seems that not everyone is sold on the use of these, some even saying they can cause problems

so I clipped off all 3 orange Panasonic film caps (1 across the big 6800uF filter cap, and 1 each across both the L & R 4700uF coupling caps)... then, plugged her in, and finally, this unit came to life!...

the muted midrange and highs started coming through, and the balance across all frequencies (and any required tone adjustments) became much more normal... now sounds very nice, smooth and quiet

I should note that the difference was not minor, but pretty noticeable

based on this experience, I will probably remove the similar bypass caps the the big 2 filter caps on my 2275, even though it sounds great

also, I would strongly urge anyone to think twice about installing these bypass caps, which seem to be recommended as standard practice here on AK for 22XX restorations... I'm not sure of the exact science, but in my case on my 2230, they truly did degrade the sound and did so considerably, probably in excess of the total benefits produced by all those new and boutique caps that were installed!

thanks everyone, and I'd love to hear any comments!

 

[ssouci]

Patfont:

well, things are finally sounding decent with my 2230 and I am now nicely in the ballpark of what this thing can produce...

maybe now I can consider some further tweaks, but only if they are expected to produce a noticeable difference in SQ, otherwise I won't risk disrupting things or creating unnecessary work... otherwise, I'm pretty happy since I did not use any garbage caps (mostly Silmics and Pana films)and the work was carefully done

Q1: what do you think about my use of all Nichicon HE caps on the power supply board? (they don't appear to be audio grade)... do you think switching to all Silmic IIs here is worth it?... I know you feel this board is perhaps the most important one for SQ, based on your tests... I have never seen you test HEs, nor say much about them

Q2: HEs are supposed to last a very long time in power supply boards... any concerns in using Silmics here when considering longevity? (touching it and the caps, it seems to generate very little heat, if any at all.... same goes for my entire LED-equipped 2230.. nothing gets noticeably warm at all)

thanks!

 

[patfont]

I like Nichicon PW and HE, If you look through this rebuild you will see I am using a 22uf HE on the amp boards along with 2 47uf PW's on each channel.

So you are using a 2230 in your system:

What are your:

Speakers
Source
Interconnect if using digital?
Speaker wires
Turntable
Cartridge
What kind of music do you listen to

Pat

Patfont:

well, things are finally sounding decent with my 2230 and I am now nicely in the ballpark of what this thing can produce...

maybe now I can consider some further tweaks, but only if they are expected to produce a noticeable difference in SQ, otherwise I won't risk disrupting things or creating unnecessary work... otherwise, I'm pretty happy since I did not use any garbage caps (mostly Silmics and Pana films)and the work was carefully done

Q1: what do you think about my use of all Nichicon HE caps on the power supply board? (they don't appear to be audio grade)... do you think switching to all Silmic IIs here is worth it?... I know you feel this board is perhaps the most important one for SQ, based on your tests... I have never seen you test HEs, nor say much about them

Q2: HEs are supposed to last a very long time in power supply boards... any concerns in using Silmics here when considering longevity? (touching it and the caps, it seems to generate very little heat, if any at all.... same goes for my entire LED-equipped 2230.. nothing gets noticeably warm at all)

thanks!