Marantz 2230 "Throw Down" What's all the Buzz?

[ssouci]

me again with my restored 2230...

background: after a complete and pretty meticulous recap/restoration, I have mixed feelings about my 2230, and still don't feel it sounds as good as it should, and probably not quite what others are apparently getting with theirs!

I have a 2275, and there is no question I would pick it over the 2230 *easily*, which seems a bit surprising and I would think it should be closer

compared to my 2275, the 2230 sounds a bit dead or dull, especially in the midrange and higher frequencies... the sound is less vibrant, and seems a bit "distant" and perhaps a bit veiled vs. the 2275... I'm not talking but a huge, obvious amount, but definitely noticeable to my ears... also, the frequency balance seems a bit off, and I have to dial the bass way down or it's simply too bass-heavy

I've been playing around, and after testing my 2230 with 3 very different sets of speakers, none of them sound all that amazing... respectable yes, but not "wow"... all 3 sounded better with the 2275

also, since both receivers have pre/main in/out jacks, I tried using the preamp of the 2230 feeding into the 2275, and the reverse, the 2275's preamp feeding into the 2230's amp... I did not test extensively, but what I found in *BOTH CASES*, was that bringing the 2230 into equation resulted in poorer sound quality, mainly a loss of vibrancy and the sound sounded more dead... very surprising

so, can anyone perhaps suggest where I might have gone wrong or what I should check?

the rebuild was done using info from AK, etc., and :
- upped the capacitance of the 1 big filter and 2 coupling caps to 6800uF and 4700uF respectively... these also had bypass caps installed
- power supply board has all Nichicon HEs
- mainly Silimic IIs on the amp modules and preamp
- the 3.3uf caps on the pre/tone board are Silmics IIs, but I had to use 100V rated (up from 25V stock)
- all 8 transistors on pre/tone board replaced w. modern equivalents, hfe matched (1 had gone bad)
- I checked all the ground connections I could find, and re-seated them and added a drop of DeOxit Gold
- I like to think I replaced all parts correctly and made the electrical adjustments correctly

so........ does anyone have any great ideas?... or maybe the 2275 is just a far superior receiver!?

I want to plan this out before I open up this receiver (again!), and before I rip out & replace any parts

some thoughts I had:
- using HEs on the power supply board is not good... this board apparently (and surprisingly) affects sound quality, and I hear most people using Panasonic FCs here
- the 4 Silmic II caps on the pre-tone have too high a voltage rating? (100v)... I might be better using films here? (like WIMAs)
- the "big can" caps are too high in capacitance?... and/or I shouldn't have bypassed them?

thanks!

 

[patfont]

ok, I can see you are not happy with the rebuild. I have my own ideas and do not want to upset any ones apple cart but I will tell you what I would do since you are responding in this thread.

The power supply- Nichicon HE ok for now/Silmic II ideal
*******1st and easiest thing to do is clip off all of the bypass caps on the Nichicon KG's snip snip 6 times and you are done
*******Amp boards looks good but for C753 use a 10uf 35V Silmic II, and C751 use a Wima MKS2
*******All of the Panny Films on the preamp board have to go. Please put back the original marantz films that were on there the .22uf and the .47uf. Also loose the 1uf Panny films, and replace the mid ones with Silmic II or Silmic Bipolar, and the rear ones with Wima MKS4.
I can not see the phono board but put back the Marantz Films and what did you use for the 22uf caps? Again this is only my opinion and others may be animated about keeping the ECQ's, the marants films are very very good.

Snip the bypass caps off 1st. (You can duplicate what these are/may be doing better by upgrading the diodes on the P/S Board.
Then on to the preamp board which would be easiest, and see if you think that you are headed to a more favorable direction sonically. If you need any of the parts let me know.

If you do another one Mouser has the proper Nichicon KG's at 35mm for the coupling caps, and either parts Connexion or Michael Percy has the 35mm for the power cap, you just add a 35mm clamp from Mouser or parts Connexion and all looks pretty.

 

[Ths364]

ssouci- maybe you just like the 2275 better. Some people like a more forward presentation (brighter and hotter mids), some folks find detail irritating. Not everybody will like the 2230. Not everybody likes the 2275.

 

[ssouci]

ok, I can see you are not happy with the rebuild. I have my own ideas and do not want to upset any ones apple cart but I will tell you what I would do since you are responding in this thread.

The power supply- Nichicon HE ok for now/Silmic II ideal
*******1st and easiest thing to do is clip off all of the bypass caps on the Nichicon KG's snip snip 6 times and you are done
*******Amp boards looks good but for C753 use a 10uf 35V Silmic II, and C751 use a Wima MKS2
*******All of the Panny Films on the preamp board have to go. Please put back the original marantz films that were on there the .22uf and the .47uf. Also loose the 1uf Panny films, and replace the mid ones with Silmic II or Silmic Bipolar, and the rear ones with Wima MKS4.
I can not see the phono board but put back the Marantz Films and what did you use for the 22uf caps? Again this is only my opinion and others may be animated about keeping the ECQ's, the marants films are very very good.

Snip the bypass caps off 1st. (You can duplicate what these are/may be doing better by upgrading the diodes on the P/S Board.
Then on to the preamp board which would be easiest, and see if you think that you are headed to a more favorable direction sonically. If you need any of the parts let me know.

If you do another one Mouser has the proper Nichicon KG's at 35mm for the coupling caps, and either parts Connexion or Michael Percy has the 35mm for the power cap, you just add a 35mm clamp from Mouser or parts Connexion and all looks pretty.

1. so do you think removing the bypass caps will make that much difference, and that it might make this thing come alive?... everyone seems to recommend using bypass caps, so I just find it surprising that they might actually be making my sound (noticeably) WORSE!... I'm also curious as to specifically what change in sound can be expected when removing the bypasses (ie., would it help my situation with the dull midrange and highs)

2. well, I threw out all those big Marantz caps (oops...), so too bad for me... everyone seems to recommend those orange Panasonic films, plus I've heard that ANY film is better than an electrolytic, so are they really THAT bad? (to either replace an original big fat film, or for low-value electrolytics)

thanks for your input so far!

 

[ssouci]

ssouci- maybe you just like the 2275 better. Some people like a more forward presentation (brighter and hotter mids), some folks find detail irritating. Not everybody will like the 2230. Not everybody likes the 2275.

sure, I suppose I do... however, when I read some of the descriptions people give about the amazing voices and silky highs that emanate from their 2230s, I can't help but think mine is falling a bit short! (for some strange reason)

 

[ssouci]

Patfont:

what do you think about the fact that when I tried the preamp and amp sections of my 2230 independently (by using pre in/out jumpers with my 2275), both seem to be a bit dull... what could there be in common that would affect both preamp and amp functions?... maybe the power supply board? (or does that make any sense...)... something upstream like a power cord or ???

 

[patfont]

It probably goes without saying but have you cleaned the crap out of all the controls and switches and worked them at least 100 times? Snip of the bypass caps and tell us what you think, clip as close to the ring terms as you can in the case you want to reuse. I think you will find the high end open up a bit and dimensionality improve.

 

[patfont]

It seems to me you like a more detailed sound rather then smooth.

1. Remove the bypass caps like we talked about and take a listen
2. Install Elna Cerafine on the power supply board.

That is the 2 easiest things to try with out disturbing the rest of your rebuild.

Let me know what you think?

Patfont:

what do you think about the fact that when I tried the preamp and amp sections of my 2230 independently (by using pre in/out jumpers with my 2275), both seem to be a bit dull... what could there be in common that would affect both preamp and amp functions?... maybe the power supply board? (or does that make any sense...)... something upstream like a power cord or ???

 

[cwmartin]

me again with my restored 2230...

background: after a complete and pretty meticulous recap/restoration, I have mixed feelings about my 2230, and still don't feel it sounds as good as it should, and probably not quite what others are apparently getting with theirs!

I have a 2275, and there is no question I would pick it over the 2230 *easily*, which seems a bit surprising and I would think it should be closer

compared to my 2275, the 2230 sounds a bit dead or dull, especially in the midrange and higher frequencies... the sound is less vibrant, and seems a bit "distant" and perhaps a bit veiled vs. the 2275... I'm not talking but a huge, obvious amount, but definitely noticeable to my ears... also, the frequency balance seems a bit off, and I have to dial the bass way down or it's simply too bass-heavy

I've been playing around, and after testing my 2230 with 3 very different sets of speakers, none of them sound all that amazing... respectable yes, but not "wow"... all 3 sounded better with the 2275

also, since both receivers have pre/main in/out jacks, I tried using the preamp of the 2230 feeding into the 2275, and the reverse, the 2275's preamp feeding into the 2230's amp... I did not test extensively, but what I found in *BOTH CASES*, was that bringing the 2230 into equation resulted in poorer sound quality, mainly a loss of vibrancy and the sound sounded more dead... very surprising

so, can anyone perhaps suggest where I might have gone wrong or what I should check?

the rebuild was done using info from AK, etc., and :
- upped the capacitance of the 1 big filter and 2 coupling caps to 6800uF and 4700uF respectively... these also had bypass caps installed
- power supply board has all Nichicon HEs
- mainly Silimic IIs on the amp modules and preamp
- the 3.3uf caps on the pre/tone board are Silmics IIs, but I had to use 100V rated (up from 25V stock)
- all 8 transistors on pre/tone board replaced w. modern equivalents, hfe matched (1 had gone bad)
- I checked all the ground connections I could find, and re-seated them and added a drop of DeOxit Gold
- I like to think I replaced all parts correctly and made the electrical adjustments correctly

so........ does anyone have any great ideas?... or maybe the 2275 is just a far superior receiver!?

I want to plan this out before I open up this receiver (again!), and before I rip out & replace any parts

some thoughts I had:
- using HEs on the power supply board is not good... this board apparently (and surprisingly) affects sound quality, and I hear most people using Panasonic FCs here
- the 4 Silmic II caps on the pre-tone have too high a voltage rating? (100v)... I might be better using films here? (like WIMAs)
- the "big can" caps are too high in capacitance?... and/or I shouldn't have bypassed them?

thanks!

Had the same issue with my first 2230. Did not like it before recap or after. Too dull for my tastes. That said the guy I sold it to is in love with it - go figure! Have another, mint, stock unit right now and it has the same dull sound. I guess I am a detail guy too. Will probably sell the second one also.

 

[ssouci]

Patfont:

RE: "1. Remove the bypass caps like we talked about and take a listen
..."

- I thought that bypass caps were supposed to improve and boost the high end, so wouldn't removing these bypass caps actually make my problem worse?

- I imagine that the large main filter cap and the 2 large coupling caps perform quite different roles... what are the merits of clipping off the bypass in only one of these? (or must they both be done)

thx!

 

[PB_Audio]

Had the same issue with my first 2230. Did not like it before recap or after. Too dull for my tastes. That said the guy I sold it to is in love with it - go figure! Have another, mint, stock unit right now and it has the same dull sound. I guess I am a detail guy too. Will probably sell the second one also.

Ok... I have to ask.
Who performed the recap?
Was it complete?
AND, most importantly, can you specify the caps used and their quality?
If you can not answer these questions, your experience has no practical relevance to the sonic characteristics of the Model you are describing, beyond the individual unit you have listened to.
But, why the need to tell you this obvious fact?
Merely replacing the spark plugs in your car will not, in itself, make your car a quarter-mile champ, will it?

 

[PB_Audio]

me again with my restored 2230...

background: after a complete and pretty meticulous recap/restoration, I have mixed feelings about my 2230, and still don't feel it sounds as good as it should, and probably not quite what others are apparently getting with theirs!

I have a 2275, and there is no question I would pick it over the 2230 *easily*, which seems a bit surprising and I would think it should be closer

compared to my 2275, the 2230 sounds a bit dead or dull, especially in the midrange and higher frequencies... the sound is less vibrant, and seems a bit "distant" and perhaps a bit veiled vs. the 2275... I'm not talking but a huge, obvious amount, but definitely noticeable to my ears... also, the frequency balance seems a bit off, and I have to dial the bass way down or it's simply too bass-heavy

I've been playing around, and after testing my 2230 with 3 very different sets of speakers, none of them sound all that amazing... respectable yes, but not "wow"... all 3 sounded better with the 2275

also, since both receivers have pre/main in/out jacks, I tried using the preamp of the 2230 feeding into the 2275, and the reverse, the 2275's preamp feeding into the 2230's amp... I did not test extensively, but what I found in *BOTH CASES*, was that bringing the 2230 into equation resulted in poorer sound quality, mainly a loss of vibrancy and the sound sounded more dead... very surprising

so, can anyone perhaps suggest where I might have gone wrong or what I should check?

the rebuild was done using info from AK, etc., and :
- upped the capacitance of the 1 big filter and 2 coupling caps to 6800uF and 4700uF respectively... these also had bypass caps installed
- power supply board has all Nichicon HEs
- mainly Silimic IIs on the amp modules and preamp
- the 3.3uf caps on the pre/tone board are Silmics IIs, but I had to use 100V rated (up from 25V stock)
- all 8 transistors on pre/tone board replaced w. modern equivalents, hfe matched (1 had gone bad)
- I checked all the ground connections I could find, and re-seated them and added a drop of DeOxit Gold
- I like to think I replaced all parts correctly and made the electrical adjustments correctly

so........ does anyone have any great ideas?... or maybe the 2275 is just a far superior receiver!?

I want to plan this out before I open up this receiver (again!), and before I rip out & replace any parts

some thoughts I had:
- using HEs on the power supply board is not good... this board apparently (and surprisingly) affects sound quality, and I hear most people using Panasonic FCs here
- the 4 Silmic II caps on the pre-tone have too high a voltage rating? (100v)... I might be better using films here? (like WIMAs)
- the "big can" caps are too high in capacitance?... and/or I shouldn't have bypassed them?

thanks!

Regarding the following question:
You asked, "so........ does anyone have any great ideas?... or maybe the 2275 is just a far superior receiver!?"

First off. The 2275 is most definitely a better design, and a superior receiver, IMHO.
What you are experiencing, however, was designed in by Marantz.
Specifically, the 2230, 2245, 2270 were designed earlier, at a time when many audiophiles were still lamenting the departure from tube designed amp/preamps in favor of transistors. Makes sence that Marantz would look for a similar sound in this batch of receivers.
Moving ahead 4 or 5 years, to the middle 70s, for those who were around back then, main stream music tastes turned to Rock, and the designs of the 2250, 2275 bumped up the upper-midrange a tad... by design. Personally, I prefer the 2270; but individual preferences, and ones speaker selection are the obvious wild card.
You clearly prefer a little extra 'sizzle' in your upper-midgange.
Among high-end audiophiles of the time, many would not have agreed with your tastes. So be it... it's your preference; and you are matching the receiver to your speakers. Some speakers have a 'hotter' upper-midrange, and may be a better match you either a 2230, 2245 or 2270.
Of course, all this assumes a proper restoration of your receiver, which, I understand, is in question here.

 

[cwmartin]

Ok... I have to ask.
Who performed the recap?
Was it complete?
AND, most importantly, can you specify the caps used and their quality?
If you can not answer these questions, your experience has no practical relevance to the sonic characteristics of the Model you are describing, beyond the individual unit you have listened to.
But, why the need to tell you this obvious fact?
Merely replacing the spark plugs in your car will not, in itself, make your car a quarter-mile champ, will it?

I did the recap (have done at least 25 of them on various receivers and tuners).
It was complete.
Nichicon Gold Tunes and Black Gates.
There is no need to tell me. I am simply commenting on what I heard.
I think that sometimes we just have personal preferences. I suspect also that we may agree on some of them too.

 

[cwmartin]

I might add that small electrolytics in the signal path were in many cases replaced with stacked film.

 

[patfont]

They remove hash and grain from the high end but may also be causing other problems. It sounds like I am not giving you the answers you want, and i am really trying to help you.

Patfont:

RE: "1. Remove the bypass caps like we talked about and take a listen
..."

- I thought that bypass caps were supposed to improve and boost the high end, so wouldn't removing these bypass caps actually make my problem worse?

- I imagine that the large main filter cap and the 2 large coupling caps perform quite different roles... what are the merits of clipping off the bypass in only one of these? (or must they both be done)

thx!

 

[PB_Audio]

I did the recap (have done at least 25 of them on various receivers and tuners).
It was complete.
Nichicon Gold Tunes and Black Gates.
There is no need to tell me. I am simply commenting on what I heard.
I think that sometimes we just have personal preferences. I suspect also that we may agree on some of them too.

Indeed... we do.

 

[patfont]

For those interested in this 2230 cap list I now have a project from Mouser I can share, you will have to PM me and provide me with your email address, I will also send you a word document with ordering info for Parts Connexion, Handmade Electronics and your options. And also a list of each cap and location.

 

[ssouci]

They remove hash and grain from the high end but may also be causing other problems. It sounds like I am not giving you the answers you want, and i am really trying to help you.

hey, I totally understand you're trying to help and it's much appreciated!

I'm just asking and probing as much as I can, BEFORE making any physical changes (and having to open her all up again)... as much as this is a hobby for me, I have very limited space & time for any work in my tiny apartment, so I avoid all the work I can... it's somewhat depressing to have fixed her all up, only to discover it's not the holy grail of receivers, at least for my ears and my speakers... to make things worse, I never even listened to it before the rebuild, since I just bought it and there was a weird electrical problem I didn't want to risk running it too long

my recap/rebuild was pretty carefully done, and I don't think anything too crazy was done, either in the slight mods I made, and all the parts were of decent quality and those used commonly by AKers in their rebuilds

in fact, in my 2275 rebuild, I used even "lesser" caps (mostly Panasonic FCs and orange films), and that turned out sounding very well... I also used bypass caps on the 2 filter caps... FCs on the power supply board

of course for the 2230, I also cleaned all the controls and switches with Dexoit, and even opened up all the pushbutton switches and added Deoxit Gold (the switch contact surfaces were dry but very clean and silver colored)... applied Faderlube to the pots (ASIDE: ...and "ruined" another Marantz volume control by spraying Deoxit inside, thus inadvertently flushing out that precious grease around the shaft and losing the smooth, tight rotary feel!!!)

stupid question 1:
how is it possible that the caps used on the power supply board affect the sound so much?... I thought this board simply provided electrical power (to be used by other parts of the circuit), and it wasn't in the audio path

stupid question 2:
I seem to have mediocre sound, whether my 2230 is used as preamp only, as an amp only, or combined as an integrated amp (normal)... is the power supply board involved in all 3 cases?... if so, could it (and the caps used here) be the main culprit?

thx

 

[patfont]

The 2230 just may not be your cup of tea, and I can appreciate the fact that you do not want to open her up again, it is hard to go in once you have buttoned her up. Viewing your pics it looks like you did a real nice job on the rebuild. With out hearing it myself I can not definitively tell you that xy or z will do this or do that, I am going to leave it up to you to decide, as I outlined what I would do, but the point is moot due to the fact that the 2230 is not your prefered sonic signature.

hey, I totally understand you're trying to help and it's much appreciated!

I'm just asking and probing as much as I can, BEFORE making any physical changes (and having to open her all up again)... as much as this is a hobby for me, I have very limited space & time for any work in my tiny apartment, so I avoid all the work I can... it's somewhat depressing to have fixed her all up, only to discover it's not the holy grail of receivers, at least for my ears and my speakers... to make things worse, I never even listened to it before the rebuild, since I just bought it and there was a weird electrical problem I didn't want to risk running it too long

my recap/rebuild was pretty carefully done, and I don't think anything too crazy was done, either in the slight mods I made, and all the parts were of decent quality and those used commonly by AKers in their rebuilds

in fact, in my 2275 rebuild, I used even "lesser" caps (mostly Panasonic FCs and orange films), and that turned out sounding very well... I also used bypass caps on the 2 filter caps... FCs on the power supply board

of course for the 2230, I also cleaned all the controls and switches with Dexoit, and even opened up all the pushbutton switches and added Deoxit Gold (the switch contact surfaces were dry but very clean and silver colored)... applied Faderlube to the pots (ASIDE: ...and "ruined" another Marantz volume control by spraying Deoxit inside, thus inadvertently flushing out that precious grease around the shaft and losing the smooth, tight rotary feel!!!)

stupid question 1:
how is it possible that the caps used on the power supply board affect the sound so much?... I thought this board simply provided electrical power (to be used by other parts of the circuit), and it wasn't in the audio path

stupid question 2:
I seem to have mediocre sound, whether my 2230 is used as preamp only, as an amp only, or combined as an integrated amp (normal)... is the power supply board involved in all 3 cases?... if so, could it (and the caps used here) be the main culprit?

thx

 

[onwardjames]

This thread reminds me of several cruel truisms in my life.

1) I love seeing gear restored/improved like this. Amazing. However, I cannot hope to do it myself, as I have no patience, training, or technical ability.

2) I'm bound geographically to the audio equivalent of a "dead zone"....few good scores, and positively NO good repairmen/craftsmen of the caliber I see on AK.

3) I like automobiles, but just replacing a battery terminal yesterday, I nearly lost the tip of my finger. True story.

I love my passions, but they don't love me.


patfont, this is a goldmine of a thread. Thank you (from a techo-Luddite)