Mind bending rumble trouble

[heyraz]

What has been stated so far:

@radiokomhat:

We have:
1. This problem is not only with this particular turntable in your setup (?)

Correct, as @Whaleudder stated in first post:

changed out the turntable to one with a different cartridge

And added:

If I play a record long enough it starts to double and triple up

"double and triple up" suggests feedback to me.

Then @Whaleudder added

Edit: https://imgur.com/a/9bMav5e here is a link to what is happening. This is during the lead in to a song, no music is playing and apart from a few cracks from the speakers having trouble there is no audible sound.

Didn't the first post have audio before the edit? What I recall hearing was intermittent and cyclical.

No matter because @rothwellaudio very correctly surmised:

Looks to me like arm/cartridge resonance. In fact, it looks very very very much like arm/cartridge resonance.

And I agree, it does sound like arm/cartridge resonance. Might even see the needle quivering in the spinning groove except:

@Whaleudder stated:

I am using a Debut carbon DC turntable with an Ortofon M2 Red cartridge and stylus. These are the originals that came with the turntable. They both have less than 30 hours on them.

If Project packaged the turntable and cartridge together, I would think they should know enough not to mismatch a cartridge to their table enough to create a resonance issue. Maybe yes, maybe no.

And:
@Whaleudder stated in first post:

changed out the turntable to one with a different cartridge

I think it's not impossible to have 2 different turntable/cartridge combinations behave the same way. More improbable than impossible.

So...if the noise occurs with the needle in the groove of a record spinning or not spinning, on two turntables with different cartridges, I agree it could be a resonance issue.

But what is causing the initial excitement? Could it be:

Subwoofer: B&W 8 inch non-ported coming from preout on the amp.

@Whaleudder
Where is the subwoofer and have you tried turning it off?

 

[Fishead]

Yeah, something is exciting that stylus.....had the same issue and it resolved with the wall shelf (on main system).

This has been a subject of discussion many times on this forum, the "pumping woofers" issue, and there have been quite a few circumstances identified that were causing it. Most, not all, have been able to resolve the issue by isolating the turntable in one way or another. Some, indeed, have discovered as @rothwellaudio suggests, a resonance problem related to the arm/cartridge combination. However, @heyraz points out that this is not very likely given the combination was provided by Project; besides, the OP has tried another turntable with a different cartridge and the issue persists. Could it be that the second, or third turntables were compromised in terms of the arm/cart mismatch? Possible, but not likely.

Still, the arm/cartridge relationship is intriguing and warrants further investigation. I might suggest looking at the pins on the back of the cartridge. Maybe you've already done this, but sometimes that can cause an issue similar as to what you describe. I recall having some buddies over for a listening session and doing some cartridge swapping to make comparisons. I accidentally put the leads on the wrong pins and something like your situation ensued. Not likely, again, that Project would have made such a mistake but it's really easy to check and free!!! (I know, it happened with the other tables as well but let's just work with this one for now) I might also suggest, while you're at it, to clean those connections with something like deoxit d5 to ensure that there is not a veiled connection issue.

Beyond this, I would get on board with some of the others' suggestion to take your setup, at least for starters your turntable, to a friend's place (one whose home is not constructed with steel), hook it up and see what happens? Or, as has also been suggested, to try to rule out the steel construction get a long extension cord and hook it up outside!!! I know folks here with aluminum stud homes and they have no such problems. So, unless there would be a difference between steel (are you sure it's steel and not aluminum?) and aluminum, that would kind of suggest the construction is not the problem but who knows?

I'm sure you will, but let us know how it goes!

 

[Whaleudder]

What has been stated so far:

@radiokomhat:

Correct, as @Whaleudder stated in first post:


And added:

"double and triple up" suggests feedback to me.

Then @Whaleudder added


Didn't the first post have audio before the edit? What I recall hearing was intermittent and cyclical.

No matter because @rothwellaudio very correctly surmised:


And I agree, it does sound like arm/cartridge resonance. Might even see the needle quivering in the spinning groove except:

@Whaleudder stated:

If Project packaged the turntable and cartridge together, I would think they should know enough not to mismatch a cartridge to their table enough to create a resonance issue. Maybe yes, maybe no.

And:
@Whaleudder stated in first post:


I think it's not impossible to have 2 different turntable/cartridge combinations behave the same way. More improbable than impossible.

So...if the noise occurs with the needle in the groove of a record spinning or not spinning, on two turntables with different cartridges, I agree it could be a resonance issue.

But what is causing the initial excitement? Could it be:


@Whaleudder
Where is the subwoofer and have you tried turning it off?

Thank you for the very good summary of where we are at with solving this issue. I have tried with the subwoofer off, and have also tried with it on in different locations.

I will be taking my amp and turntable next door today to test on another set of speakers and a different room.

one question is, could this be caused by incorrect cartridge alignment? When the turntable arrived the cartridge was not secured or aligned. I did my best with the two point protractor that project supplies however I am not sure it’s 100% correct.

 

[C Hart]

@radiokom is correct. This is a problem whose most frequent cause is woofers too close to the turntable causing acoustic feedback. If the turntable is on a jiggly surface that will aggravate it.

While it is a possibility, tonearm and cartridge resonance is improbable - this is not an unusual arm and cartridge, the main one was a TT/cart OEM package, and it happens on multiple turntables.

Electrical and radio waves would not cause this behavior, nor would steel or metal frames of the house or stand.

Experiment to determine if this is the correct problem by changing variables. Start with the easiest fix: Move the sub and speakers further away.

I didn’t notice it until I got my new entertainment unit

If that doesn't work, a shorter, heavier, less wobbly stand should be next. The stand's steel frame material is not a factor but its shape and mass is.

a couple of pillows under the turntable

If you're still having the issue, isolate the turntable so it is supported with a mass layer like a big piece of marble or granite flooring and a thin foam layer under it. Pillows will have no effect on the feedback but will likely make it impossible to level the TT.

with an Ifi zen phono (including with the subsonic filter on)

If that all fails try it again with the Ifi and subsonic filter engaged. You should see an immediate elimination or major lessening of the effect if there is feedback (and the filter works properly). However: The Ifi is a "smart" filter may not be just a high-pass - I was unable to find any informaiton on it but it appears designed to prevent warped record subsonics which could be 1 or 2 Hz, not the typical 15-25Hz of acoustic feedback. Something like this might work better and is cheap to try: https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-20-Hz-High-Pass-266-246?quantity=1 - probably will need to be in the tape loop on that amp,or you could use the Ifi line output for feeding the filters.

 

[Whaleudder]

T

Yeah, something is exciting that stylus.....had the same issue and it resolved with the wall shelf (on main system).

This has been a subject of discussion many times on this forum, the "pumping woofers" issue, and there have been quite a few circumstances identified that were causing it. Most, not all, have been able to resolve the issue by isolating the turntable in one way or another. Some, indeed, have discovered as @rothwellaudio suggests, a resonance problem related to the arm/cartridge combination. However, @heyraz points out that this is not very likely given the combination was provided by Project; besides, the OP has tried another turntable with a different cartridge and the issue persists. Could it be that the second, or third turntables were compromised in terms of the arm/cart mismatch? Possible, but not likely.

Still, the arm/cartridge relationship is intriguing and warrants further investigation. I might suggest looking at the pins on the back of the cartridge. Maybe you've already done this, but sometimes that can cause an issue similar as to what you describe. I recall having some buddies over for a listening session and doing some cartridge swapping to make comparisons. I accidentally put the leads on the wrong pins and something like your situation ensued. Not likely, again, that Project would have made such a mistake but it's really easy to check and free!!! (I know, it happened with the other tables as well but let's just work with this one for now) I might also suggest, while you're at it, to clean those connections with something like deoxit d5 to ensure that there is not a veiled connection issue.

Beyond this, I would get on board with some of the others' suggestion to take your setup, at least for starters your turntable, to a friend's place (one whose home is not constructed with steel), hook it up and see what happens? Or, as has also been suggested, to try to rule out the steel construction get a long extension cord and hook it up outside!!! I know folks here with aluminum stud homes and they have no such problems. So, unless there would be a difference between steel (are you sure it's steel and not aluminum?) and aluminum, that would kind of suggest the construction is not the problem but who knows?

I'm sure you will, but let us know how it goes!

hank you for your response. The house is steel frames and has some very large I-beams in the floor construction. I’m hoping to narrow things down today when I take my amp and turntable to another house. Depending on the results of that I will probably then do a test outside on my deck away from as much steel as I can.

 

[Whaleudder]

@radiokom is correct. This is a problem whose most frequent cause is woofers too close to the turntable causing acoustic feedback. If the turntable is on a jiggly surface that will aggravate it.

While it is a possibility, tonearm and cartridge resonance is improbable - this is not an unusual arm and cartridge, the main one was a TT/cart OEM package, and it happens on multiple turntables.

Electrical and radio waves would not cause this behavior, nor would steel or metal frames of the house or stand.

Experiment to determine if this is the correct problem by changing variables. Start with the easiest fix: Move the sub and speakers further away.


If that doesn't work, a shorter, heavier, less wobbly stand should be next. The stand's steel frame material is not a factor but its shape and mass is.


If you're still having the issue, isolate the turntable so it is supported with a mass layer like a big piece of marble or granite flooring and a thin foam layer under it. Pillows will have no effect on the feedback but will likely make it impossible to level the TT.


If that all fails try it again with the Ifi and subsonic filter engaged. You should see an immediate elimination or major lessening of the effect if there is feedback (and the filter works properly). However: The Ifi is a "smart" filter may not be just a high-pass - I was unable to find any informaiton on it but it appears designed to prevent warped record subsonics which could be 1 or 2 Hz, not the typical 15-25Hz of acoustic feedback. Something like this might work better and is cheap to try: https://www.parts-express.com/FMOD-Crossover-Pair-20-Hz-High-Pass-266-246?quantity=1 - probably will need to be in the tape loop on that amp,or you could use the Ifi line output for feeding the filters.

Hello thank you for your comment. I share the same concerns with the “smart” Ifi subsonic filter and have sent it back to exchange for a dumb one that will just brick wall subsonic sound. I’m really hoping I see some improvement.

 

[C Hart]

Good move, IMO. That is what I would do. I certainly hope it works - you have been through quite a wringer.

 

[Fishead]

When the turntable arrived the cartridge was not secured or aligned.

Are you saying that the cartridge was not mounted to the tonearm and that you did this yourself? A cartridge that is not aligned quite right might cause the sound to be less than its potential, but I haven't heard of that producing the symptoms you describe. I have, however, heard of a cartridge that is not properly connected to be the cause.

 

[Whaleudder]

Are you saying that the cartridge was not mounted to the tonearm and that you did this yourself? A cartridge that is not aligned quite right might cause the sound to be less than its potential, but I haven't heard of that producing the symptoms you describe. I have, however, heard of a cartridge that is not properly connected to be the cause.

I will have to get someone out who is more experienced I think.

 

[Whaleudder]

I have now completed my test next door. We can rule out the room and the room and the location of the turn table. Different house, different amp, different speakers, same result. This means that the only two things that have not now been conclusively ruled out are the power and the setup of the turntable (even though I have tested with two turntables there is still a common element, me. I setup both turntables so it might be something I have done with cartridges alignment or something else).

concerning turntable connection I will endeavour to describe how it’s all connected.

the back of the turntable has two RCA jacks and a grounding screw connector. The cable I am using has two RCA male connectors on each end and has a grounding wire with a spade connector down the middle.

I plug the white RCA cable into the white RCA Jack at the turntable end. I plug the red RCA cable into the red RCA Jack at the turntable end then again into the red at the amp end. I connect the grounding wire to the turntable using the spade connector and stewing it to secure it in place. Likewise at the amp end I screw the spade connector into the amp grounding screw connector. The amp section that I am plugging into is the phono input on the amp.

Please refer to the pictures in the following links.

https://imgur.com/a/7kj5aO0

 

[Fishead]

I'm not sure how much you know about things.....did you mount the cartridge into the end of the tonearm? If so, did you pay attention to the correct pin assignment for each of the four wires? Sorry if this is something you already know about and am just trying to determine where you're at amigo.

 

[Whaleudder]

I'm not sure how much you know about things.....did you mount the cartridge into the end of the tonearm? If so, did you pay attention to the correct pin assignment for each of the four wires? Sorry if this is something you already know about and am just trying to determine where you're at amigo.

Thank you for your comment and our minds were both running along the same lines because between my last post and this post I have checked out the documentation for the cartridge and turntable to ensure the correct wires were connected to the correct posts on the cart. They are. This was in place from the factory but it was something I wanted to double check.

 

[ronaldw441]

I wonder if there's something wrong with your turntable's drive system. Remove the belt and spin the platter by hand. When released, does the platter continue to spin for at least several seconds? As the spin decreases does the platter come to a stop smoothly? Before replacing the belt. clean it and the OD of the platter & the pulley on the motor. Report back...

 

[Fishead]

Do you feel comfortable pulling the clips off of the pins on the rear of the cartridge and then pushing them back on? It takes a steady hand and some very small needlenose pliers. The purpose would be to ensure that each is making good contact. This will likely not resolve anything, but it would be something I would do just to rule it out and it takes very little time.

 

[Whaleudder]

I wonder if there's something wrong with your turntable's drive system. Remove the belt and spin the platter by hand. When released, does the platter continue to spin for at least several seconds? As the spin decreases does the platter come to a stop smoothly? Before replacing the belt. clean it and the OD of the platter & the pulley on the motor. Report back...

Hello, thank you I have tried your suggestion. Nice smooth rotation, also did inspection to insure there was no defects, smooth stop, nice rotation. I have cleaned belt and parts that contact with belt and issue still persists.

 

[Whaleudder]

Do you feel comfortable pulling the clips off of the pins on the rear of the cartridge and then pushing them back on? It takes a steady hand and some very small needlenose pliers. The purpose would be to ensure that each is making good contact. This will likely not resolve anything, but it would be something I would do just to rule it out and it takes very little time.

Well that was well beyond my comfort zone. I think my pliers may have been a touch too large however I was able to remove all the tiny cables (major pucker factor) and put them all back on. All have nice solid mechanical connection. No improvement sadly.

 

[Fishead]

Maybe so, but good work just the same.

At this point I'd say that your cartridge has a problem but since you put at least one, or I think even two other tables in the system with the same outcome, I am inclined to think we need to find another tree.....sooooooo.....the constants are your speakers, the subwoofer, your stands and the amp. You said the problem persisted with or without your sub so that means you tested it with the sub out and it still did the same thing. That leaves the amp, the stands and your speakers. I again want to suggest a wall shelf as the first remedy since that will stand you in good stead whatever the outcome. It is better to mount the table on one than not in my experience. Then, might you be able to come by another amp to try in your system? Replace the amp to rule it out, and then the speakers. If the replacements still exhibit the problem, then I'm outta ideas amigo! Start considering @radiokom's demons and some exorcism rituals.....

No, seriously, this sounds so much like a cartridge issue and the comments of @rothwellaudio come to mind. Then there's the unlikelihood of Project supplying a cartridge with a table that would not be matched to the arm. Further, however improbable as it may seem, those other turntables and the cartridges installed on them might also have been such mismatches but we don't know as you have not mentioned what they were. That information might be helpful if you have it.

Then there's the consideration of moving your system to the other house with the problem following neatly along.....that is bizarre, but it again points us back to something with the system UNLESS the alternate location placement of the turntable was also one that induced resonance of the same sort....how did you set things up in that location, that is....on what was the turntable placed, proximity to the speakers?

 

[heyraz]

Just wondering....
1. If I'm not mistaken, your turntable comes with a wall wart power supply. Is it correct for New Zealand voltage and frequency?

2. Same question for your other turntable.

3. If any of your other components use wall warts, any chance they've become mixed up?

4. Here in the U.S. if a component's power plug is unpolarized we can flip it in the wall socket, sometimes that makes a difference. Can you do the same?

It's bad practice to run low level signal wires (like the left and right interconnects from your turntable) parallel and adjacent to high voltage power wires like the power cord for your amp.
If they must cross, the wires should cross each other at 90°.

 

[radiokom]

@Whaleudder
Where is the subwoofer and have you tried turning it off?

I believe this is source of problem. I missed he has subwoofer. It is possible it

Just wondering....
1. If I'm not mistaken, your turntable comes with a wall wart power supply. Is it correct for New Zealand voltage and frequency?

2. Same question for your other turntable.

3. If any of your other components use wall warts, any chance they've become mixed up?

4. Here in the U.S. if a component's power plug is unpolarized we can flip it in the wall socket, sometimes that makes a difference. Can you do the same?

It's bad practice to run low level signal wires (like the left and right interconnects from your turntable) parallel and adjacent to high voltage power wires like the power cord for your amp.
If they must cross, the wires should cross each other at 90°.

He has noise only when cartridge is lowered on record (no matter turntable spins or not). So it is mechanical reason. Maybe subwoofer oscillation what result in surface vibration at very low frequency (as @Whaleudder wrote - turn it off) or something else. Seismic activity or demons

 

[spark1]

I think the OP mentioned earlier that the problem occurs with and without the subwoofer being active.