Monster amps that are happy bridged to 4ohm?

[DanTana]

The Sony TA-N77ES and TA-N80ES same amp different faces, from the Vintage Knob, thanks to Alex.

System : Super Legato Linear
Pure complementary SEPP
STD power supply
Dual protection circuits
Triple p-p discrete output transistors
G-Chassis
Resin-cast power supply caps
Fixed/variable inputs
Continuous RMS power : 2x 270W (4 Ohm, 20Hz...20Khz, THD 0,006%)
2x 230W (6 Ohm, 20Hz...20Khz, THD 0,005%)
2x 200W (8 Ohm, 20Hz...20Khz, THD 0,004%)
1x 580W (8 Ohm, mono, 20Hz...20Khz, THD 0,004%)
Dynamic power :
660W (1 Ohm)
800W (2 Ohm)
520W (4 Ohm)
370W (6 Ohm)
300W (8 Ohm)
Power bandwidth : 10Hz...100Khz (4 Ohm, THD 0,02%)
10Hz...100Khz (8 Ohm, THD 0,02%)
Dynamic headroom : 2,8dB (4 Ohm)
1,8dB (8 Ohm)
THD : 0,004% (10W / 4 Ohm)
0,003% (10W / 6 Ohm)
0,0018% (10W / 8 Ohm)
IM : 0,006% (4 Ohm at rated output)
0,005% (6 Ohm at rated output)
0,004% (8 Ohm at rated output)
Frequency response : 1Hz...200Khz (+0/-3dB)
Damping factor : 100 (8 Ohm / 1Khz)
Slew rate : 150V/µsec
300V/µsec (inside)
Residual noise : less than 35µV
S/N ratio : 120dB (A weighted, '78 IHF)
Inputs : 1V / 30kOhm (unbalanced)
0,5V / 600 Ohm (balanced)
PC : 380W (US)
950VA (Canada)
Dimensions : 47 x 18,5 x 44cm (with wood-sides)
Weight : 25kg (EU)
26,3kg (US)

 

[House de Kris]

When you bridge an amp. it sees the speaker load as half it's nominal impedance.

IOW, a bridged amp will see your four ohm speakers as a two ohm load.

Slight error in bold. It should be:
IOW, a bridged amp will see your four ohm speakers as two two ohm loads (in series, or four ohms total).

I'm talking one 4 ohm speaker connected to a bridged amp will be seen as a two ohm load by that bridged amp.

Well, at least you are consistant in your beliefs and errors.

 

[Jon_Logan]

The bigger/better Crowns model the output transistors and adjust things to keep them operating. These things can play at the possible output power while maintaining reliability.

Another amp that comes to mind is the Sunfire and Lightstar type amps. These amps keep the rail voltage only a couple of volts above the output waveform voltage. This minimizes the voltage across the output transistors, allowing them to run a lot cooler while delivery large currents.

I've seen a lot of posts bragging about the current capability, etc. of some amplifiers. That kind of doesn't mean anything to me as far as an amplifier being able to do the job.

Yeah, you need the current there to maintain a waveform into a lower impedance, yada, yada, yada, but that is only one thing. What will keep the amp safely working? keeping your speakers connected to a safe source?

Thermal management:
Fans help, but the thermal circuit is slow. By the time the heat sinks have transferred their fan cooled temperatures to the junctions of the output transistors, it may be too late

VI Limiting:
Purists hate the idea of VI limiting saying that it impacts the sound quality, but it is one of the more effective ways in preventing damage to the output transistors. You can have an amp with loads of output current capability, etc, but if you don't have a way to limit it, you can easily destroy them.
For example; an output transistor might be able to sink or source 20A and has a Power dissipation PD of 200Watts. Let's say the rail voltage is 90 Volts. You're not going to get 20A through that transistor for very long because the PD it's asked to dissipate will be 90(V) X 20(A) = 1800(W), exceeding the transistor's 200Watt spec.

IMO, it's best to stay away from really low impedance speakers. Even more, it's best not to bridge an amp to feed low impedance speakers.

In cases where it's impossible to avoid a very low impedance load, it's best to use an amp that has good protection circuits that activate invisibly, as possible. There are no perfect amps for driving low impedances, as all transistors have a finite box that they can perform in.

 

[Markw]

Slight error in bold. It should be:
IOW, a bridged amp will see your four ohm speakers as two two ohm loads (in series, or four ohms total).



Well, at least you are consistant in your beliefs and errors.

Care to elucidate what the error is?

If you meant the "s" on speakers errononouisly making it a a plural, that makes you one pedantic little stool sample.

 

[electroking]

The bigger/better Crowns model the output transistors and adjust things to keep them operating. These things can play at the possible output power while maintaining reliability.

...

VI Limiting:
Purists hate the idea of VI limiting saying that it impacts the sound quality, but it is one of the more effective ways in preventing damage to the output transistors. You can have an amp with loads of output current capability, etc, but if you don't have a way to limit it, you can easily destroy them.
For example; an output transistor might be able to sink or source 20A and has a Power dissipation PD of 200Watts. Let's say the rail voltage is 90 Volts. You're not going to get 20A through that transistor for very long because the PD it's asked to dissipate will be 90(V) X 20(A) = 1800(W), exceeding the transistor's 200Watt spec.

...

A transistor that carries 20 A while connected to a 90 V bus does not
necessarily dissipate 1800 W. Rather, that power is shared by the
transistor and the load. You have to know the average value of V_CE
in order to calculate the transistor dissipation. I trust this is understood
by everyone.

 

[Jon_Logan]

A transistor that carries 20 A while connected to a 90 V bus does not
necessarily dissipate 1800 W. Rather, that power is shared by the
transistor and the load. You have to know the average value of V_CE
in order to calculate the transistor dissipation. I trust this is understood
by everyone.

You are wrong. I hope everybody understands this.

The dissipation by any one transistor is the current through it, multiplied by the voltage across it. There is no dissipation "sharing".

The load dissipates the current through it, multiplied by the voltage across it.

 

[ron-c]

Phase Linear 700II should do nicely to match your requirement.

Thanks,
Ron-C

 

[House de Kris]

Care to elucidate what the error is?

If you meant the "s" on speakers errononouisly making it a a plural, that makes you one pedantic little stool sample.

OK, I'll give it a shot. First, as an observation, you seem to have a hair-trigger for name calling. Sure glad there's no attitude here.

You second post said, "I'm talking one 4 ohm speaker connected to a bridged amp will be seen as a two ohm load by that bridged amp." First of all, a four ohm speaker will always be a four ohm speaker, no matter what the toplogy of the amp driving it. Does this makes sense? Do you agree with that? So, a four ohm speaker hooked to either a single-ended output or a bridged output is still a four ohm speaker. Nothing can really change that fact. A bridged amplifier is (typically) made of two single-ended outputs in series. Each half of the bridged amplifier will indeed see one half of the load. So, half of a bridged amplifier will indeed see a two ohm load. Therefore, a bridged amplifier will see two two ohm loads in series (totalling four ohms).

The error is not the last 's' on the word 'speakers' as you assumed. Instead it was the word 'a' in front of the word 'two' when it should have been the word 'two' in front of the word 'two.' This makes for a bridged amp will see two two ohm speakers in series, and NOT a bridged amp will see a two ohm speaker.

Hope this helps.

 

[Pandovski]

EE MMA in progress.

 

[1973x75]

I'm powering my Ohm Model I's with a Nad 7400 bridged to a Nad 2400, both 100 watts. It's good synergy. I get compliments. Louder than you'll ever want to play it, but the speakers can handle it. The amps do get hot at very high volume, but I don't do it often. It's been working for me for years.

 

[Markw]

Double post

 

[Markw]

OK, I'll give it a shot. First, as an observation, you seem to have a hair-trigger for name calling. Sure glad there's no attitude here.

You second post said, "I'm talking one 4 ohm speaker connected to a bridged amp will be seen as a two ohm load by that bridged amp." First of all, a four ohm speaker will always be a four ohm speaker, no matter what the toplogy of the amp driving it. Does this makes sense? Do you agree with that? So, a four ohm speaker hooked to either a single-ended output or a bridged output is still a four ohm speaker. Nothing can really change that fact. A bridged amplifier is (typically) made of two single-ended outputs in series. Each half of the bridged amplifier will indeed see one half of the load. So, half of a bridged amplifier will indeed see a two ohm load. Therefore, a bridged amplifier will see two two ohm loads in series (totalling four ohms).

The error is not the last 's' on the word 'speakers' as you assumed. Instead it was the word 'a' in front of the word 'two' when it should have been the word 'two' in front of the word 'two.' This makes for a bridged amp will see two two ohm speakers in series, and NOT a bridged amp will see a two ohm speaker.

Hope this helps.

First, as an observation, I don't respond kindly to some pedantic stool ambushing me with some snide comment, particularly when what I said was true.

Well, unless you can drive only one half of a bridged pair, your bloviating analogy is as full of horse hocky as your original post.

Yeah, a four ohm speaker will always be a four ohm speaker. But, a bridged amp (or two mono amps bridged so as to be one amp) will see it as a two ohm load. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

I mean, I tried to word my first post sufficiently simple so that any idiot could understand what I was saying. You have shown me I missed that goal.

My initial observation about you stands. In fact, thanks for confirming it.

If anyone wants to see the truth behind this charlatans balderdash, read this link. It's a little lengthy, but skim theough it and you'll see what I said was simple and true, in spite of all this fancy dancing simply to satisty someones flagging ego.


Hope this helps, as if I care.

 

[electroking]

You are wrong. I hope everybody understands this.

The dissipation by any one transistor is the current through it, multiplied by the voltage across it. There is no dissipation "sharing".

The load dissipates the current through it, multiplied by the voltage across it.

If you assume that the emitter voltage is zero, of course you're right.
I trust we're saying the same thing, only my statement was more general.

 

[HyKlas]

I do realize now that I'll be better off bi-amping than bridging. The Phase Linears are nice, forgot about those guys. Pair of them at 700w per speaker would probably do nicely. Especially with the 1000 damping factor.. The 12s in these things need a lot of control. Rather inexpensive unit too. Thanks for that one!

That's basically my reasoning behind wanting all the power behind them, keeping the "subwoofer" in line and keeping the amps cool... I like my music loud and my movies louder.

Thanks everyone for your input, back to arguing if you wish...

 

[ron-c]

Even though your speakers are rated at 1000 watts, 1000 watts will only be perceived as twice as loud as 100 watts. The way we hear is a log scale. If you get a healthy 200 to 500 watt amp at 4 ohms you will get most of what the speaker can deliver.

thanks again,
Ron-C

 

[Jon_Logan]

Even though your speakers are rated at 1000 watts, 1000 watts will only be perceived as twice as loud as 100 watts. The way we hear is a log scale. If you get a healthy 200 to 500 watt amp at 4 ohms you will get most of what the speaker can deliver.

thanks again,
Ron-C

THAT is the ugly truth. It makes the fascination for more power seem silly.

 

[kevzep]

Citation won't bridge at 4ohms in to one channel.

The crown is a pro amp, no meters, and about 4x too much power.

Who knows, maybe I'll have to get something ugly like that and just hide it away so I don't have to look at it. Rather not though..

So I have as you see in my signature, a Macrotech 5002VZ driving my subs.......you can never have too much power...
This amp is simply the finest sounding amp I have ever had on my subs.....you want to talk low impedance's the 5002VZ is happy at 1Ω where it produces 3000watts continuous.....


Ugly? Boo Hoo.....:tears:
I dont think so.........

 

[House de Kris]

First, as an observation, I don't respond kindly to some pedantic stool ambushing me with some snide comment, particularly when what I said was true.

No stool was ambushing you, no need to get defensive. I merely pointed out an incorrect statement, and tried to clarify. Note, what you said was not true, and it is still not true. Hence my piping up with the comment that the bridged amp does not see a speaker half the impedance of the non-bridged amp.

Yeah, a four ohm speaker will always be a four ohm speaker. But, a bridged amp (or two mono amps bridged so as to be one amp) will see it as a two ohm load. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

If anyone wants to see the truth behind this charlatans balderdash, read this link. It's a little lengthy, but skim theough it and you'll see what I said was simple and true, in spite of all this fancy dancing simply to satisty someones flagging ego.


Hope this helps, as if I care.

Thanks for correcting the link. The earlier link to graphic and parametric equalizers didn't make too much sense in this context. Now, if you had read the link you provided, you'd see something like this mentioned:

So in theory, with 2X voltage and 2X current, you get 4X the power in bridge mode compared to a single channel in stereo mode.

This supports exactly what I was trying to communicate to you earlier. When you put two amp channels in series (bridged), it is easy to see you get 2X the voltage. When 2X the voltage is applied to the same load, the result is 2X the current. Your claim that the amp would see half the load would result in 4X the current. But, this is not what happens. Please read that link. A bridged amp does not see half the impedance.

I do certainly agree (as noted in my previous post) that each half of the bridged amp must be stable into one half of the attached load. But, a half of a bridged amp does not make a bridged amp. From the point of view of the bridged amp, it sees the load for what it is.

I essence, I believe we are in agreement. It is just that you erroneously worded your position, twice. Oops, make that thrice.

Here's a little mental exercise for you: If a single-ended amp supplies 8V to an 8ohm load, it will produce 1A of output current. In your world, if a bridged amp supplies 8V to an 8ohm load, it will provide 2A of current. In the real world, the bridged amp suppling 8V to an 8ohm load will provide the same 1A that a single-ended amp will deliver. Wacky, huh? I understand you don't care, but perhaps some day, long into the future, you may think about this.

 

[anderslober]

Moderator.........are you allowed to say 'stool sample' in an amp discussion??? Yikes....this has turned serious.......

Consider BRYSTON amps too.

Kevin....those Macrotechs are cool...........................costly?

 

[gaslover]

1 Ohm? HA! GAS used to arc weld with the Godzilla. That would be 0 Ohms...

http://dozin.com/godzilla/amp.htm