Moral Dilemma-Killing a Coyote

[whoaru99]

I'm a profesional driver I log on average 250 miles a day. And I have a hard rule about critters on the road. If it ain't big enough to come through the windshield I won't swerve I might aim gently to try to not hit something. But having a very good friend who is now in a wheelchair for life after she swerved to miss a skunk and ended up slamming into a power pole along side the road when she over corrected.

And loosing a very good friend who swerved to miss a range cow on the road at night in Northern CA. And ended up going over a 40 foot drop on the side of the road and dying some 3-4 hours later while hangin upsidedown in his SUV. I've seen to many wrecks caused by trying to miss some little furry critter.

I'm sorry but when I weigh the options of hitting something head on while square on the road (a type of wreck most autos are designed to protect the passengers during) compared to the possibility of flying off the road in some spastic action to save a skunk. I have to go with staying on the raod.

+1 :thmbsp:

If there is ample time to apply the brakes or make a safe avoidance maneuver and not cause other traffic problems, I'll try to avoid running over a critter. But if it comes out of nowhere unexpectedly, and it's critter or me, I guarantee it's going to be critter every time.

 

[boyon00]

Our friend had a big problem with coyotes on her farm a few years ago. She brought in an exterminator who took care of it. They found the main lair and in that lair they found the dog collar from every dog that had gone missing in the area the last few years. It was about 50 of them.

 

[Alaric]

Slightly OT, but what about the sad occurrence of hitting a deer/cat/dog/whatever while driving your car? I hit a stray cat not too long ago. I was obeying the speed limit, paying full attention, and this black cat just jumps in front of the car, seemingly out of nowhere. I swerved, almost hitting a parked car, but my reflexes just weren't good enough. I felt REAL bad about it. I got out and tried to help in any way I could, but he was a goner. :sigh::thumbsdn:

It is a moral issue, in the sense that all of our roads used to belong to nature. Man has built an empire where there were once trees and wilderness, and this type of thing does happen. Just remember, nature will always win, regardless of what we build....:yes:

I believe I would have to pull over and throw up if I hit someone's family pet. That wouldn't stop me from setting a mousetrap in my kitchen.
As an aside , why does "nature" exclude the presence of humans? Aren't we native to the planet?
While I don't indulge in hunting for "sport" , I won't say anything derogatory towards those who do. I have no issue with those who hunt and eat the game-unless they're hunting in my yard. Hence my issue with coyotes. My mother was in her 60s , 5'2" tall , and in her yard in a suburb of Columbus , OH , when she beat two coyotes away from a neighbor's dog (on a leash). Coyotes are dangerous predators that lack a healthy fear/respect of man.

nature will always win

and I'm at the top of the food chain. In the natural order , I am the Tyranno Rex. Opposable thumbs and pointy canine teeth were just the beginning. The whole reason and rationale thing sealed the deal-our planet-our rules. Honestly , being in charge is a great survival tool. It has always amazed me that those who embrace evolution have no idea how it works. IMO

 

[mjennens]

I believe I would have to pull over and throw up if I hit someone's family pet. That wouldn't stop me from setting a mousetrap in my kitchen.
As an aside , why does "nature" exclude the presence of humans? Aren't we native to the planet?
While I don't indulge in hunting for "sport" , I won't say anything derogatory towards those who do. I have no issue with those who hunt and eat the game-unless they're hunting in my yard. Hence my issue with coyotes. My mother was in her 60s , 5'2" tall , and in her yard in a suburb of Columbus , OH , when she beat two coyotes away from a neighbor's dog (on a leash). Coyotes are dangerous predators that lack a healthy fear/respect of man.

and I'm at the top of the food chain. In the natural order , I am the Tyranno Rex. Opposable thumbs and pointy canine teeth were just the beginning. The whole reason and rationale thing sealed the deal-our planet-our rules. Honestly , being in charge is a great survival tool. It has always amazed me that those who embrace evolution have no idea how it works. IMO

:thmbsp::thmbsp::thmbsp:Very well put!!!:thmbsp::thmbsp::thmbsp:

 

[Alaric]

Thank you. I'm just a guy who really loves a good steak.

 

[kretinus]

This eliminates the "pump up" and Daisey single cock models

My Benjamin is a pump, .22 caliber, over 900 FPS muzzle velocity. Then again it's over 40 years old, made with with heavy steel and walnut, no plastic.

 

[whoaru99]

There are some really nice air rifles out there, but by the time you get to that stage one might just as well shoot a .22 rimfire loaded with CBs. Actually, I think the CBs are quieter than some air rifles I've heard.

 

[Sportlark64]

She is back after a week - She's a Loner ??

My best half saw her (she squated to pee)(maybe a confused male) this AM . She stayed well away from the yard and the house . She is on probation . If she behaves she can hunt our land for all the rats and mice she can eat !
I'm not going to kill her unless there is no other recourse . She is beautiful , but I will keep my eyes out . There are few packs in our vacinity by the howling we get .
I can't wait for spring , wow what a beautiful chorus we get here .
Just hope the Cougar doesn't come back . I saw on TV lately that females may hunt 50 miles and males around 100 miles . We haven't seen them since we got here in May 05' , so they may be making the rounds . One thing is for sure . Neither the Cougar or Panther (Very Dark Brown and different head shape) .were afraid of my wife on our Quad . I'm thinking about asking for a new 40SW pistol for when I'm out and about . Need more rounds and knock down than my 6 shot SW Revolver . I'm considering a Taurus 24/7 OSS

http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=563&category=Pistol

http://www.taurustactical.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=99&category=Pistol

I'll need to get my wrists and forearms back in shape .

Sad to say we may need something like this for 2 legged predators . As things get worse it may be a necessary deterrant . MO. like Texas has some very good Home Protection Laws as well as loaded pistols and rifles in autos .
Steve

 

[treserious]

I fall very much in the treehugging hippie ninny bunch when it comes to trying to live green, and having a healthy respect for nature and all the creatures that inhabit her.

but if I lived in an area where coyotes are common, I wouldn't hesitate taking one out if it was getting ballsy enough to be a threat.

coyotes are beautiful, as long as they're shy.
as soon as they don't care about their proximity to people, they're a threat.

 

[Bstable]

There are some really nice air rifles out there, but by the time you get to that stage one might just as well shoot a .22 rimfire loaded with CBs. Actually, I think the CBs are quieter than some air rifles I've heard.

Yes, but the main reason I chose the Beeman was that its quality is second to none. You can not fire a "real gun" inside your house (or at least you shouldn't) Backyard?....real guns are still out of the question (depends upon your backyard though)

Pellets being lead do not ricochet like real bullets or even BBs. They will drop to the ground or disintegrate fired directly into a brick wall. Just a much safer way to target practice. BB guns are primarily an American invention. As far as I know they not made by the German companies.

These manufacturers produce some of the most accurate rifles/pistols in the world (they are used in the Olympics)

Benjamin are the better American (if they are still made here) air rifles. Most (even Daisy and Crossman) are made overseas in China and elsewhere.
I can shoot my pellet gun all day for a few dollars. Real guns not so much.

My air rifle is warranted FOR LIFE. They are that well built

Pump up rifles (I used to have one) can be very problematic as they rely on multiple gaskets and O rings. The quality rifles I speak of require 1 "cock" of the barrel and are at full power. They stay at full power. Pump ups tend to leak and require much effort to pump for full power.

 

[Alaric]

I'm thinking about asking for a new 40SW pistol for when I'm out and about . Need more rounds and knock down than my 6 shot SW Revolver . I'm considering a Taurus 24/7 OSS

Seriously , if a double-tap from your chosen weapon doesn't drop a 70-100 lb. predatory cat instantly , it won't matter how many rounds you have left when it kills you. Go bigger than a .40 S&W. You won't need more than two rounds of anything-one of you will die before round three arrives most of the time. A cat that isn't afraid of a motorized vehicle with a human on it is a mortal danger to all. A .30-.30 would be a better choice. My $.02

Neither the Cougar or Panther (Very Dark Brown and different head shape) .

I'm pretty sure the difference , if any exists , won't be discerned looking over an open sight. I'm also pretty sure the survivor of the encounter won't care either.

 

[whoaru99]

If one is going to carry a rifle, then I might just consider a good old 12ga and some buckshot or slugs.

For a hand shooter, I'd go .357 or .44 for something like this. Both can be loaded with commonly available low recoil rounds for practice shooting or plinking.

 

[Sportlark64]

Switching Gears

I totally agree with you on a .45 . But the .40sw is far from a slouch ballistically . Only draw back is the bullet grain of 230 the .45 vs. .40sw of 180gr. I imagine that IS a major disadvantage .But the .40 gets very close to expansion as the .45
I've shot both got some time with a Ruger P90 and a knock off .45 1911 .The Ruger was a BEAST and way too big for my hands . The .40 is "Snappy" IMO , but fit better .
I have a few problems with my hands ,rt. forearm and shoulder (nerve damage) and for the topper small hands .
I've heard folks rave on Federals "Hydra Shok" so I got a comparison chart that's pretty interesting .

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/compare/handgun_compare.aspx
It won't save the actual side by side Comparo but I used .40HST and .46HST
in the 180 grain range . Then you can also go for the .45HST in 230gr.HST Bowling Ball .


As far as the 30-30 it's a bit bulky on a quad . I also have my 20" Mavrick (Mossberg) 12g pump 3" chamber that I keep loaded with 00 Buck and slugs alternating for secondary home protection . First is a pack of dogs one is 180 lbs then a 95lb. Rottie and a Sheppard Wolf and between those three I'd only probabley need to shoot the person to put him outta our misery ! I call it my "Crap-Shoot Gun" . Out on the Quad may justify 000 Buck . It's pretty easy to swing around .
The coyote is not staying in our near vacinity . I heard her last night about 200'+ yappin' to our neighbours dogs . But she hasn't been in view since the day I unloaded a round of 00 in her general vacinity .As someone who mentioned earlier on they aren't dumb . So she may lead a longer life than expected .

 

[Alaric]

That's good news about the coyote. I forgot all about them when you mentioned the cat isn't afraid of a quad with a human on it. Cougar attacks have been on the upswing in some places. I don't think anybody cares who encroached what when 100+ lbs. of Garfield is eying you (or a loved one) like leftover lasagna!

 

[Sportlark64]

Crouching Cougar-Hidden Coyote

Yeah I'm very much afraid of the Cougar and Panther . I figure unless I got extremely lucky with the 38spl JHP's it would only serve to piss it off .
The Coyote has smarts , but the Big Ctas have and show an indifferance to man and machine . Strange or maybe not that no livestock has gone missing . But,,, There is an abundance of deer and turkey and other smaller morsels that must be keeping them happy and fat . Our nieghbours to the north have game cameras and I've seen 6-8 deer and several turkey at their corn feed plot . We had 7-8 Turkeys in our backyard Friday . We're not there yet but if need be I'd snipe either for meat .Some of the Toms are huge . I've only seen 1 buck in 4 years but I've found "rubs" on trees in the far NW corner of our property , so I know they are around . And the Does with young un's are a dead giveaway .

 

[zenith2134]

Whatever, Alaric. I don't need to pick a fight on an audio site's "off-topic" forum. We are all entitled to our opinions here.

I enjoy a good slab of meat, too. Hey, a coyote couldn't operate a computer, right? I just try to be humane when I can.

 

[soundmotor]

We haven't "encroached" into coyote habitat. The vermin are spreading into areas they were never indigenous to.

My own little town (founded 350+ years ago) has given them plenty of time to adapt our presence and adapt they have. In the warm weather you'll see them strolling on the sidewalks after midnight or skulking between buildings. And lucky for us on the east coast we have a coyote much different than the one that lives out west, ours travel in packs vs. the loner characteristic of western ones. Why? Sometime back they interbred with wolves so we ended up with an improved model. Agile, pack cooperative, & smart. They are also considerably larger than their western counterpart -

Eastern Coyote -

Eastern Coyote UNH -

Eastern Coyote Study

Eastern Coyote NJDEP -

NJ Coyotes

Metrowest Coyote Blog

When my son was in cub scouts we had an overnight camp at the local shooting club which is in the middle of preserve land & town forest. I was awakened in the middle of the night hearing 15-20 of them howling just like wolves. Pretty amazing really but a bit disconcerting. Several times during the night different fathers woke up to that or to hear them moving around outside the tents. They are quite bold as a group.

In addition to having deer (bucks & does), owls, hawks, fishers, foxes, and all other common wild animals in my yard at one time or another, I've had coyotes also. Forgetting to get the mail a few years back I went out late in the evening to get it and not 10 feet from me was one eating something on my neighbor's lawn. It took off (leisurely) when I yelled at it and stopped a couple homes up the street to resume its meal. "Hey, don't mind me, sorry for the intrusion."

My FFL related the following to me: His daughter had a new baby and during the summer (windows open) she noticed a large 'dog' had begun to appear in the yard every time her baby cried. She finally realized that it was a coyote. The final straw came when she got home one afternoon with her baby and it came out of the woods immediately and came towards her. She called her dad and he came over and summarily dealt with the problem.

Around here at least, coyotes are wary of humans but they are anything but fearful. People go out of there way to not harm them and are having the exact opposite effect. Their numbers seem to be growing. There will be a head-on collision with likely tragic results at some point and it will probably involve a child. However, they do have one very good quality, they love Canadian geese which are now year-round residents of everywhere but Canada it seems.

:grumpy:

 

[Alaric]

Whatever, Alaric. I don't need to pick a fight on an audio site's "off-topic" forum. We are all entitled to our opinions here.

I enjoy a good slab of meat, too. Hey, a coyote couldn't operate a computer, right? I just try to be humane when I can.

You're absolutely right. I was off the reservation and apologize. I need to remember ice cream comes in different flavors for a reason. A big :nono: for me.

I came across as telling you you are "wrong". Sorry.

 

[WhiteSE]

You guys are funny...after a few hundred years of human presence, you want them to adapt in a way that makes them fearful? isnt that a contradiction in terms. Familiarity breeds a loss of fear I would think.

If they see people all day long motoring around, at some point, some of them will not be so fearful. especially if they are not in inmediate danger from the humans.

Humans are not an unkown factor anymore for many of these animals...but wtf do you expect? If they were all so fearful to stay in whatever morsels of land left, they would most likely run out of range quite quickly, so they branch out.

I rather have someone be honest and say, we ****ed nature over and now we have this happen by no one's fault but our own, but I will still drop a coyote who is a threat (obvious thing to do).

 

[Alaric]

My own little town (founded 350+ years ago) has given them plenty of time to adapt our presence and adapt they have. In the warm weather you'll see them strolling on the sidewalks after midnight or skulking between buildings. And lucky for us on the east coast we have a coyote much different than the one that lives out west, ours travel in packs vs. the loner characteristic of western ones. Why? Sometime back they interbred with wolves so we ended up with an improved model. Agile, pack cooperative, & smart. They are also considerably larger than their western counterpart -

Eastern Coyote -

Eastern Coyote UNH -

Eastern Coyote Study

Eastern Coyote NJDEP -

NJ Coyotes

Metrowest Coyote Blog

When my son was in cub scouts we had an overnight camp at the local shooting club which is in the middle of preserve land & town forest. I was awakened in the middle of the night hearing 15-20 of them howling just like wolves. Pretty amazing really but a bit disconcerting. Several times during the night different fathers woke up to that or to hear them moving around outside the tents. They are quite bold as a group.

In addition to having deer (bucks & does), owls, hawks, fishers, foxes, and all other common wild animals in my yard at one time or another, I've had coyotes also. Forgetting to get the mail a few years back I went out late in the evening to get it and not 10 feet from me was one eating something on my neighbor's lawn. It took off (leisurely) when I yelled at it and stopped a couple homes up the street to resume its meal. "Hey, don't mind me, sorry for the intrusion."

My FFL related the following to me: His daughter had a new baby and during the summer (windows open) she noticed a large 'dog' had begun to appear in the yard every time her baby cried. She finally realized that it was a coyote. The final straw came when she got home one afternoon with her baby and it came out of the woods immediately and came towards her. She called her dad and he came over and summarily dealt with the problem.

Around here at least, coyotes are wary of humans but they are anything but fearful. People go out of there way to not harm them and are having the exact opposite effect. Their numbers seem to be growing. There will be a head-on collision with likely tragic results at some point and it will probably involve a child. However, they do have one very good quality, they love Canadian geese which are now year-round residents of everywhere but Canada it seems.

:grumpy:

:yes: I have .454" @ 265 grains for coyotes. Where I live , if I can see them , they don't belong. I have a child and a strong sense of preservation. Granted , my 70 lb. Chow is pretty much coyote-proof , but he isn't allowed to roam free-because he kills things that approach my child. Fortunately , we so far live in a society where I have the same response and my .45 is much harder to see than my dog.