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My Marantz 2270 doesn't sound any better than my modern Denon AVR-X1700H. What am I missing?

ianstaub

ianstaub

New Member
Hi all, hoping for some opinions.

TL;DR: I can't tell much of a difference between my un-serviced Marantz 2270 and Denon AVR-X1700H in A/B tests. What am I missing?

Background: Since this summer I've been happily listening to music on my relatively new Denon AVR-X1700H feeding Klipsch Heresy IVs. I use a B&W ASW608 sub to round out the bottom end. Sources include Tidal streaming via HEOS, vinyl, TV via HDMI ARC, and some gaming systems. I've been getting more into the hobby and have been thinking of ways to experiment with and improve my system for Stereo and 2.1 music listening.

I just re-acquired my old Marantz 2270 that I used as a teenager. It's been sitting in my old bedroom since 2011. It has never been serviced as far as I know, but this weekend I cleaned it up and did a thorough Deoxit routine on the pots and switches. There are no audible "issues" with the amp as far as I can tell. There is the tiniest bit of white noise floor when the amp is turned up.

I bought a Solupeak passive amp switcher from Amazon and set the 2270 up side by side with my existing Denon AVR-X1700H. Both amps feed the Klipsch Heresy IVs in a large living room. For the 2270, I plugged an iPad into the aux input. I disabled the sub since I don't have a way to connect it to the Marantz at the moment and make it a fair comparison.

Based on everything I've been reading, I was expecting more of a difference. Everyone says Heresy speakers hate modern AVRs. I enjoy the sound fine, so I figured I'd be blown away with the 2270. The Marantz does sounds great, but so does the Denon. In fact, the difference in sound between the two receivers is so miniscule, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a blind test. The Denon has a tiny bit more detail and dynamic energy in the high end, while the Marantz is the tiniest bit more rounded off and the soundstage a touch larger. But a very very minor difference.

What gives??? I have a few thoughts to start:
  1. The Marantz probably needs a service - it was "free" to me so I'm okay paying someone to take care of it. I'm curious what I can expect sound-wise with a refurbishment.

  2. Unfair DAC comparison - I assume the internal DAC in the Denon, while not amazing, is better than the DAC internal to the iPad. I just ordered a Wiim Mini and Topping E30 to test with the Marantz, as this is a likely signal chain that I would use if the Marantz stays in rotation.

  3. Audiophile mumbo jumbo - we all parrot things we have no real experience with and that we read from the pros. An example being that Heresy IVs have no business being driven by a modern $700 Denon AVR. I'm not a total skeptic, but I'm also a bit underwhelmed, hence this post.
Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions. I look forward to discussing with you.
 
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I like the way you think, obviously you are willing to consider the possibility that it's a crap shoot on the synergy - meaning the mix of gear and of course our own subjective perception.
At any rate - the thing that stuck out to me is that the different setups sounded pretty much the same? That tells me maybe the room is the dominate factor? It does seem odd that the Marantz would sound virtually the same as the completely different Denon. That does make one think it might be something else rather than the gear?
What's the room like? Do you have friends\family who feel the same about the sound?
I'm kinda spit balling here.
 
I've actually found out of all the avr equipment I've used, Denon and Marantz were quite capable of 2 channel stereo. I could have easily lived with an older Denon AVR just for 2 channel sound quality!
The worst was an Onkyo circa 2007?? Just terrible on stereo stuff. It did the job for 7.1 movies tho..
 
I think that the 40 year old electrolytic caps in the Marantz may not be performing optimally anymore. With new low impedance caps in it, it should sound better. There may be some noisy transistors as well, causing the noise you hear. HTRs have a lot of digital signals going through them and it's really hard to keep the noise out of the audio signal path. That's one of the reasons I dislike them. Also you can't give a customer 5 separate amplifiers in one unit for the price of a receiver with 2 really good amps in it without making quality cuts. Also the tuners in HTRs suck. They all use 3 gang tuner packs, so the sensitivity and noise rejection suffer.
 
Dingman said:
I like the way you think, obviously you are willing to consider the possibility that it's a crap shoot on the synergy - meaning the mix of gear and of course our own subjective perception.
At any rate - the thing that stuck out to me is that the different setups sounded pretty much the same? That tells me maybe the room is the dominate factor? It does seem odd that the Marantz would sound virtually the same as the completely different Denon. That does make one think it might be something else rather than the gear?
What's the room like? Do you have friends\family who feel the same about the sound?
I'm kinda spit balling here.
Click to expand...

Great thought, thank you for your response. The room is actually pretty unusual and undoubtedly plays a role. We live in a mid-century modern home, so the space in question has walls of glass, polished concrete floors, and is open plan. To combat this, there are lots of soft furnishings and a huge shag rug in front of the speakers. There are no noticeable reflections in the space despite the hard surfaces. The rear wall is nearly 35' back. The ceiling is wooden post and beam with the beams creating a sort of baffle every 8ft or so. Think something very much like the attached image, with the speakers located at the TV wall as shown.

Rather than being a reflective mess, I've found that the architecture actually allows the sound to breath a bit more. But I'm not an acoustician, and like you said, maybe the room is overriding the sound in ways that I can't perceive. We won't be doing any conspicuous acoustical treatments as the look of the home is more important to us than its acoustics.

I haven't brought anyone else in on this specific A/B test, but two family members who are audiophiles were both extremely impressed with the Denon/Klipsch sound and were amazed how well the room seemed to work acoustically.

17-RGP-5770-800x533.jpg
 
AudioAvarice said:
Hardly a fair comparrison, as the Marantz's components are half a century old, is it worth the cost of renovating though ?
Yes you will hear a difference, but probably not a huge one, maybe sell the receiver, and get a mid range integrated, it will probably sound better than both.
Click to expand...
If it was mine, I'd invest the money in a full restoration. The 2270 is one of the best receivers Marantz or anyone else ever made. I restored my Model 19 and the sound is simply gorgeous. I have an older TOTL Denon receiver, one of the early digital tuner models, and the sound is nice, but compared to the 19 it sounds like the musicians are far away, while the Marantz gives you the feeling that you are in the 10th row center.
 
dr*audio said:
If it was mine, I'd invest the money in a full restoration. The 2270 is one of the best receivers Marantz or anyone else ever made. I restored my Model 19 and the sound is simply gorgeous. I have an older TOTL Denon receiver, one of the early digital tuner models, and the sound is nice, but compared to the 19 it sounds like the musicians are far away, while the Marantz gives you the feeling that you are in the 10th row center.
Click to expand...

I like your description of where the listener is sitting in comparing the two amps. Last night, I was listening to the Charlie Haden duets record (I love how double bass sounds on the Heresy IV) and with the Marantz I felt he was in the room 10 feet in front of me, and with the Denon it was like I was putting my ear up to the fingerboard as he played, with the treble being a bit more exaggerated. Different sounds, the Marantz felt a bit more natural. But to reiterate, very minor difference. My comparison is a bit of an exaggeration.

I'm definitely not against restoration of the 2270. It's obviously a pretty valuable and desirable piece, and it doesn't really have much sentimental value. I do worry about selling it to fund a new gear purchase and the regretting letting it go as prices for these things continue to climb. Things that are most important to me sonically right now are soundstage and imaging. I like to feel inside the music in three dimensions. Do you think these elements would be noticeably improved with a restoration?
 
dr*audio said:
If it was mine, I'd invest the money in a full restoration. The 2270 is one of the best receivers Marantz or anyone else ever made. I restored my Model 19 and the sound is simply gorgeous. I have an older TOTL Denon receiver, one of the early digital tuner models, and the sound is nice, but compared to the 19 it sounds like the musicians are far away, while the Marantz gives you the feeling that you are in the 10th row center.
Click to expand...

Maybe being from the UK makes me a little biased, as receivers aren't very popular here, and I've always prefered the sound of seperates compared to any all in one type units, even if they are vintage, and TOTL. Just pointing out to @ianstaub that if they are looking for better sound, comparing a vintage all in one unit, to a modern one isn't the way to find it, and perhaps selling the Marantz at the height of the market might be the way to go.
 
AudioAvarice said:
Maybe being from the UK makes me a little biased, as receivers aren't very popular here, and I've always prefered the sound of seperates compared to any all in one type units, even if they are vintage, and TOTL. Just pointing out to @ianstaub that if they are looking for better sound, comparing a vintage all in one unit, to a modern one isn't the way to find it, and perhaps selling the Marantz at the height of the market might be the way to go.
Click to expand...

Its another topic entirely, but I'm curious briefly what makes you think we're at the top of the market.
 
The economy here isn't looking great for the foreseeable future (I wouldn't be supprised to see the pound, or dollar collapse within my lifetime) couple that with ageing audiophiles not buying as much, and actually selling off gear. Will there be enough younger buyers to justify current prices ? Also there's less people willing/qualified to work on vintage gear.
In another 40-50 years the only working examples of 'vintage audio' will probably be found in museums (but I suppose then it will be worth more as it will be antique).
 
AudioAvarice said:
The economy here isn't looking great for the foreseeable future (I wouldn't be supprised to see the pound, or dollar collapse within my lifetime) couple that with ageing audiophiles not buying as much, and actually selling off gear. Will there be enough younger buyers to justify current prices ? Also there's less people willing/qualified to work on vintage gear.
In another 40-50 years the only working examples of 'vintage audio' will probably be found in museums (but I suppose then it will be worth more as it will be antique).
Click to expand...

Yes, all good points. I'd have to agree.
 
I too have a 2270 and though I haven't done anything like real A/B comparisons, to me it does sound better than a few other amps that I've tried, though admittedly they weren't great ones. I sold some Wharfedale speakers to a friend so I know how they sounded with my Marantz and they sounded terrible to me with this brand new mid-range Denon (I think) AVR that he powered them with. I suspect, as others have said that the Marantz will likely perform better after some service. I've had some work done on mine and the friend who I had work on it commented that the amp was actually a very good one (but just one man's option, I know). All that being said though, I'm not sure that it really wins out value-wise as those receivers tend to go for probably more than they're really worth in terms of sound quality. Folks like the history and particularly the aesthetic. Having occasionally looked to see what one of these is worth, I feel like the market already topped out and is starting to decile so if you were going to sell the thing you might not be able to do much better than in the current market...
 
Two things, the Herseys and B&W can't resolve the difference or you have damaged your hearing at some point in your life. Men all seem to do that one way or another.
 
This is a vintage site and the Marantz receivers are sacred cows around here, so it is unlikely that more than a handful of folks would post an unkind word about them. My opinion, and I am just a simple barnyard pig so take that for what its worth, is that receivers as a whole are a compromise. They perform many functions and are convenient, but in terms of high performance audio playback they fall short of other options. A well designed integrated amp from a manufacturer that focuses on audio quality, in short a specialist company, is going to offer a higher level of sound quality over the Denon or Marantz. Or perhaps an amplifier/pre-amplifier stack is better aligned with what you want to hear. Now the question becomes what is good enough to satisfy you? Perhaps it is indeed a refurbished Marantz receiver, and the receivers do fit a certain lifestyle profile. I would also suggest visiting a specialty audio store and listening to various systems, if there is an audio club in your area attend a gathering to hear other people's systems, or if there are AKers in your area perhaps one of them would be willing to play their system and give you some alternate experiences to draw upon. In this hobby our listening experiences are a personal journey, and each one of us travel a specific path to audio nirvana. What you see and experience on your travels does not have to be the same as another, and what you value in terms of audio reproduction does not have to match what others experience. However it is a journey and you have to travel it and hear things to know what meets your needs and desires.
 
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