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My Marantz 2270 doesn't sound any better than my modern Denon AVR-X1700H. What am I missing?

"What Am I Missing?...lots..if you don't do a complete restoration on that 2270. I own one completely recapped and it sits comfortably performance wise even with some pretty good Levinson/Rowland gear. It actually achieves some nice front to back transparency that I don't always hear with vintage gear. I just don't understand why it is so hard for folks to appreciate the benefits of bringing equipment to spec. Would you drive a car for 40 or 50 years without service. Not a chance it would still run... Let alone run well.

I should add that I also happen to have a late 90's Denon receiver and it is out of circulation completely because it is truly sonically inadequate. Their AV receivers might be better or you might be missing out on that Marantz in its best form. I guess that's all part of the vintage game if you choose to play???!!
 
Supercool! said:
"What Am I Missing?...lots..if you don't do a complete restoration on that 2270. I own one completely recapped and it sits comfortably performance wise even with some pretty good Levinson/Rowland gear. It actually achieves some nice front to back transparency that I don't always hear with vintage gear. I just don't understand why it is so hard for folks to appreciate the benefits of bringing equipment to spec. Would you drive a car for 40 or 50 years without service. Not a chance it would still run... Let alone run well.

I should add that I also happen to have a late 90's Denon receiver and it is out of circulation completely because it is truly sonically inadequate. Their AV receivers might be better or you might be missing out on that Marantz in its best form. I guess that's all part of the vintage game if you choose to play???!!
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Speaker synergy is a big factor the marantz was designed to drive big full speakers with out subs put the Denon on demanding speakers with 10-12 woofers and it will most likely fall short that’s were the marantz will shine ! Even though he didn’t run the sub while testing it still wasn’t utilizing what the marrantz was designed for , most modern avr’s amps are powerful but don’t have the reserves for hard hitting bass because that’s usually sent to a powered sub ! It’s like putting a high hp 4 cylinder in a heavy car it my have the hp but it doesn't have the torque ! We’re the Denon would go loud it wouldn’t have the bass response on big speakers like the marantz and would sound flat on vintage speakers , not knocking the Denon it’s design would sound good on smaller drivers say towers with 6 -8 “drivers with a powered sub or subs that’s what it’s designed for !
 
I’ll chime in my two cents as well… My first thought is that it’s likely due to the fact that the Marantz needs a wee bit of servicing. After that, you’ll likely notice a positive change in the sound of your vintage amp. That said, here’s a contrarian viewpoint: Perhaps you’ve just lucked out and found a modern receiver which delivers a vintage sound, relatively speaking of course. Case in point: I recently purchased a new sound system, albeit downgraded due to space constraints in my new condominium. I have a Yamaha RXV4A paired with Elac Debut B6 2.0 speakers, an Elac 1010 sub and a Yamaha EQ 550 for good measure. I can honestly say that the sound I get is very reminiscent of 70’s analogue… It’s very warm, smooth with rolled off highs which I quite enjoy. In any case, I wasn’t expecting that at all! I was pleasantly surprised, but it goes to show that just because a piece of equipment is modern, doesn’t mean it won’t put out great sound. You may well have found yourself a unicorn!
 
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eastbrown said:
I have a B-K 507 i just run it in 2 channel stereo. Sorry but nothing can beat it. I love my vintage fishers and scott receivers etc but they and other vintage receivers cant touch it.
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Not all vintage receivers are created equal same with modern receivers as well as separates so you can’t judge all vintage receivers by the ones you mentioned , just like the modern onkyo denon and Sherwood I have don't sound as good to me as my sta2080 I have a carver hr772 140 wpc and where as it has incredible power for overall listening I prefer the sta2080 but that’s what I like , everyone’s allowed to have their own opinion ,
 
eastbrown said:
I have a B-K 507 i just run it in 2 channel stereo. Sorry but nothing can beat it. I love my vintage fishers and scott receivers etc but they and other vintage receivers cant touch it.
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If your Scott receivers are solid state, this is not surprising. A restored HH Scott tube unit will give it a run for it's money at lower power levels.
 
@ernieb1536 Of course speaker synergy is essential..I have seen a few threads on AV receivers but a ton of documentation of vintage receivers exists in comparison, we really haven't yet vetted the AV receivers that may in fact excel. I bet some were designed, as suggested, for 5.1 use and maybe others had both stereo and 5.1 performance in mind. Just a theory, but some kind of informal listing of promising AV gear would be useful.
 
Supercool! said:
@ernieb1536 Of course speaker synergy is essential..I have seen a few threads on AV receivers but a ton of documentation of vintage receivers exists in comparison, we really haven't yet vetted the AV receivers that may in fact excel. I bet some were designed, as suggested, for 5.1 use and maybe others had both stereo and 5.1 performance in mind. Just a theory, but some kind of informal listing of promising AV gear would be useful.
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Good idea!
 
Supercool! said:
@ernieb1536 Of course speaker synergy is essential..I have seen a few threads on AV receivers but a ton of documentation of vintage receivers exists in comparison, we really haven't yet vetted the AV receivers that may in fact excel. I bet some were designed, as suggested, for 5.1 use and maybe others had both stereo and 5.1 performance in mind. Just a theory, but some kind of informal listing of promising AV gear would be useful.
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Would be a good idea some of the early units that had 2 main channels of high power and lower for the surround were decent as well as some higher end and since avrs are the new bargain receivers it would be nice to know the keepers and the ones for the garage or recycling bin!
 
Bruno Primas said:
The point you COULD be missing is that when the Denon turns 50 years old, it won't be working anymore. The Marantz IS 50 and still going.
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My friend had a stereo receiver high end denon he paid $1400 for after we had a shoot out with my sta2290 he sold it ! And didn’t look back
 
ianstaub said:
Hi all, hoping for some opinions.

TL;DR: I can't tell much of a difference between my un-serviced Marantz 2270 and Denon AVR-X1700H in A/B tests. What am I missing?

Background: Since this summer I've been happily listening to music on my relatively new Denon AVR-X1700H feeding Klipsch Heresy IVs. I use a B&W ASW608 sub to round out the bottom end. Sources include Tidal streaming via HEOS, vinyl, TV via HDMI ARC, and some gaming systems. I've been getting more into the hobby and have been thinking of ways to experiment with and improve my system for Stereo and 2.1 music listening.

I just re-acquired my old Marantz 2270 that I used as a teenager. It's been sitting in my old bedroom since 2011. It has never been serviced as far as I know, but this weekend I cleaned it up and did a thorough Deoxit routine on the pots and switches. There are no audible "issues" with the amp as far as I can tell. There is the tiniest bit of white noise floor when the amp is turned up.

I bought a Solupeak passive amp switcher from Amazon and set the 2270 up side by side with my existing Denon AVR-X1700H. Both amps feed the Klipsch Heresy IVs in a large living room. For the 2270, I plugged an iPad into the aux input. I disabled the sub since I don't have a way to connect it to the Marantz at the moment and make it a fair comparison.

Based on everything I've been reading, I was expecting more of a difference. Everyone says Heresy speakers hate modern AVRs. I enjoy the sound fine, so I figured I'd be blown away with the 2270. The Marantz does sounds great, but so does the Denon. In fact, the difference in sound between the two receivers is so miniscule, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a blind test. The Denon has a tiny bit more detail and dynamic energy in the high end, while the Marantz is the tiniest bit more rounded off and the soundstage a touch larger. But a very very minor difference.

What gives??? I have a few thoughts to start:
  1. The Marantz probably needs a service - it was "free" to me so I'm okay paying someone to take care of it. I'm curious what I can expect sound-wise with a refurbishment.

  2. Unfair DAC comparison - I assume the internal DAC in the Denon, while not amazing, is better than the DAC internal to the iPad. I just ordered a Wiim Mini and Topping E30 to test with the Marantz, as this is a likely signal chain that I would use if the Marantz stays in rotation.

  3. Audiophile mumbo jumbo - we all parrot things we have no real experience with and that we read from the pros. An example being that Heresy IVs have no business being driven by a modern $700 Denon AVR. I'm not a total skeptic, but I'm also a bit underwhelmed, hence this post.
Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions. I look forward to discussing with you.
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My brother’s refurbished 2270 is a bit rolled off in the highs. Have you checked the output voltage of the iPad? It may be just 1 volt as opposed to the 2 volt level of many sources.

The best sounds I’ve experienced with Marantz and Klipsch is with the loudness button on and treble very slightly boosted.
 
AC50 said:
My brother’s refurbished 2270 is a bit rolled off in the highs. Have you checked the output voltage of the iPad? It may be just 1 volt as opposed to the 2 volt level of many sources.

The best sounds I’ve experienced with Marantz and Klipsch is with the loudness button on and treble very slightly boosted.
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Thanks - I've since upgraded the signal chain to a Wiim Mini and Topping E30 DAC, and it's definitely an improvement. Still not night and day over the Denon but it is definitely a pleasure to listen to. And yes, I agree, the loudness button stays on! Even at higher volumes it seems to just really make the sound come alive.
 
ianstaub said:
Thanks - I've since upgraded the signal chain to a Wiim Mini and Topping E30 DAC, and it's definitely an improvement. Still not night and day over the Denon but it is definitely a pleasure to listen to. And yes, I agree, the loudness button stays on! Even at higher volumes it seems to just really make the sound come alive.
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I've been considering a Topping DAC as well, but can't remember the number offhand. No hurry!
The Marantz/Klipsch pairing I heard was a 1070 and Kg4s, with a laptop of some sort as source. Very nice sound.
 
We'll see what it's ultimate longevity is but my Denon AVR-3805 is now pushing 18 years old and works every day. A comparison to my Pioneer SX-828 would definitely be apples/oranges but both make me happy in their own way.

The Denon certainly hasn't proven to be disposable junk. Except the remote. Don't get me started on the remote....
 
dr*audio said:
I restored my Model 19 and the sound is simply gorgeous. I have an older TOTL Denon receiver, one of the early digital tuner models, and the sound is nice, but compared to the 19 it sounds like the musicians are far away, while the Marantz gives you the feeling that you are in the 10th row center.
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I have a Model 19 that I want to restore.

The sound is not good actually my low end Technics SA-110 sounds better.

What was involved ?

Cost of restoration ?
 
MEWISE77 said:
I have a Model 19 that I want to restore.

The sound is not good actually my low end Technics SA-110 sounds better.

What was involved ?

Cost of restoration ?
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Well, I did the restoration myself so the only cost was my time and the parts. I am guessing I have $50 in parts cost. If you had to pay someone to do all the work I did it would probably run $800 - $1000 total.
I have info on what I did in 2 threads.
I replaced ALL electrolytic caps and did some modifications to the ground path. That info is here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/model-19-cap-list.859230/#post-12579021
The scope didn't work and the FM sensitivity was poor. That info is here:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/marantz-nineteen-19-distortion-repair.772792/page-3
You may not have to do all the work I did. I also removed the current limiting transistors in the power amps, as they mess up the sound.
 
ianstaub said:
I can certainly give that a try. Why do you think the switcher is a problem? I haven't opened it up but I believe it to be simply a passive switch. It's this one from Amazon.
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I found the same thing when I tried A/B'ing with a Douk Audio VU3. It made me feel like every amp was essentially the same. Once I got rid of it and just spent some time with the different amps, I found it much easier to differentiate.

I run a pair of Forte IV's and, while I haven't tried a Marantz with them, I've tried a number of different solid state amps: McIntosh (MC152 and MC2105), Yamaha CA - 2010, Sansui AU11000, Bryston 4BST, Hitachi HMA-7500 and Audiolab 6000A. While I really enjoyed the sound of a number of those amps, I finally came around to tubes. I'm now running a Cary Cary SLP-50B pre paired with a Cary Rocket 88 power amp, running NOS Mullard xf2 el34 power tubes and I'm 'fairly confident' that I've found my endgame.

(For reference, I've got a pretty eclectic taste in music - edm, downtempo, jazz, rock blues, classical (mainly soundtracks) and accoustic/folk all get regular time in my system.)

Hope you find your endgame!

Cheers!
 
For me the lions share of what interests me about Vintage Hi Fi is interacting with the old fashioned knobs, dials, buttons, tuners and more. I love the old analog dials the warm lights and indicators. Maybe your newer system sounds as good if not better than a vintage system at 1/4th the price. I'm an old boomer. When most of this 1970's audio gear was available I was still in high school or community college. I remember drooling over this high end gear as a kid on Supplemental Security Income (Disability). I remember quietly saying to my young self some day I'm going to own this awesome 70's audio gear. I can now afford the vintage audio I deamt about when young. That's why I collect vintage audio.

For the record I always get my vintage gear refurbished by professionals before playing it daily. A 45 year old piece of audio gear will have problems that need to be sorted before long term use. Electrolytic capacitors dry out. FETS and diodes go bad, contacts corrode and more. Insuring 45 year old gear gets a 21st century check up is factored in as part of my cost of ownership.
 
THEWEREWOLF said:
For me the lions share of what interests me about Vintage Hi Fi is interacting with the old fashioned knobs, dials, buttons, tuners and more. I love the old analog dials the warm lights and indicators. Maybe your newer system sounds as good if not better than a vintage system at 1/4th the price. I'm an old boomer. When most of this 1970's audio gear was available I was still in high school or community college. I remember drooling over this high end gear as a kid on Supplemental Security Income (Disability). I remember quietly saying to my young self some day I'm going to own this awesome 70's audio gear. I can now afford the vintage audio I deamt about when young. That's why I collect vintage audio.

For the record I always get my vintage gear refurbished by professionals before playing it daily. A 45 year old piece of audio gear will have problems that need to be sorted before long term use. Electrolytic capacitors dry out. FETS and diodes go bad, contacts corrode and more. Insuring 45 year old gear gets a 21st century check up is factored in as part of my cost of ownership.
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Yeah, I kind of have to admit that aesthetics are a big thing and that's a big part of the reason why my 2270 is a keeper. There's also the fact that it allows for lots of versatility with all of the inputs, EQ and all of that. I've had mine serviced not long ago, do I feel that it's working very well and it sounds great to my ears. If I were to upgrade at this point, I'd almost surely be looking at speakers rather than another amp, as I can't bear to part with the Marantz and I think speakers make a more dramatic difference anyway. I like using that old amp with more modern speakers...
 
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