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Nak dragon question. Is it really the best sounding

You're trying to compare professional recording gear to a consumer machine?

As far as tests:

What specific "test" would you like me to try?

Freq response? Well, according to "specs":
20 HZ~22,000 Hz ± 3 dB @ – 20dB using Type IV tape
S/N Ratio? 72dB using Dolby "C"
W/F 0.019% WRMS

Those "specs" are nothing to sneeze at. They'd be great specs for an R2R.
In fact, they are better in some ways than your 747's
(747 freq response 20Hz-26,000Hz)

Seriously, I've got W/F meter, AC Millivoltmeter, 'scope, I can plot the freq response of my R2R's and compare them to my decks, using my DAW.

Just let me know what test you think is valid, and I'll get right on it.

I've never bothered too much comparing specs, or tests.
What I hear matters, not what I measure.

However for sh*ts and giggles, I'll give 'er.

I know many don't agree with me, however I really think a top end Nak, in good as new specs, running high quality tape, can make recordings that are almost identical in overall quality to most consumer level R2R.

I've got almost every format under the sun.
Hi-Res FLAC, Minidisc, DCC, CD, Vinyl, R2R, Cassette.

I love each and every format for different reasons, and I love Nakamichi, because their decks truly help the lowly cassette tape achieve "HI-FI"

I know I come off as a fanboy, and I suppose I am, but it's all about the sound, and I get so jazzed when I can get such great sound out of this tiny cassette that everyone says is "lo-Fi" :music:
 
I have very healthy AKAI 635D and Nakamichi 1000 ZXL decks. I would not want to be the one to have to pick which has the best sound. If the AKAI had NR it might be easier...

I would like to have a Dragon. but I'm sorry, the ZXL gets the swimsuit award...
 
I would never understand the never resolving situation of looking for absolute statements in a clearly complex and information-flooded world. The Dragon is a great deck, and deserves to be named among the best ever made. As one can see from this and many other threads, establishing it, or any other one, as the best ever generates no overall consensus, with people´s favorable choices ditributed among a selected group of, perhaps, about 10 or less decks.

PS: OK, I understand that looking for absolute statements simplify our view of the world, but this idealistic desire of making things simple is not always accompanied by the facts from the material world.
 
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captaingamez said:
do it on test equipment, not with your ears, that was my point. quite honestly i can tell very little difference between my Akai 747 with a good tape and my 670zx with a sony metal master, but the devils in the details, test equipment will show different, and most likely with any decent reel vs a dragon, the decent reel will substantially outperform on test equipment, again not knocking the dragon it is an amazing piece of engineering, I am just stating the obvious, we are still talking about 1/32th of an inch per track at 1 7/8ths speed, and it has massive limits, but they really mostly arent in the human hearing range (seriously has limits when compared to the standard in reel of 7.5 ips and1/16th per track width). now if you step that up to an otari, tascam, ampex, studer, telefunken,or nagra at 15-30 ips, then yea, the word "annihilate" definitely comes to mind.

and also IMHO, not in any way knocking the RT-909, cause i want one quite badly also, but I dont feel the RT-909 to be the best of decks to compare to, I have compared the 909 to a few decks when I've had the chance, and while being a great deck, it is rarely neutral and i would under no circumstances say that the 909 anhilates ANY TOTL Nakamichi.
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although I can agree with you on some points. However, we do not hear or do our listening on 'test equipment'. Using our hearing is how we judge or should judge how good or bad a specific piece of gear sounds. Very, very few people have access to test equipment.

Personally and this is just my own opinion, I put my trust in my ears.
 
stoutblock said:
I have very healthy AKAI 635D and Nakamichi 1000 ZXL decks. I would not want to be the one to have to pick which has the best sound. If the AKAI had NR it might be easier...

I would like to have a Dragon. but I'm sorry, the ZXL gets the swimsuit award...
Click to expand...

How can you crown the ZXL the winner without having a Dragon to compare it to? I have a Dragon but no ZXL so I can't say which one is better or sounds better. Did you mean that the ZXL wins over the AKAI?
 
vidguy, you can LOOK at specs all day, why dont you test both of your machines on equipment versus eachother and then post the results, til then i just see words, not graphs.

and yes you do come off as a fanboy. you didnt even explain how it was possible that the dragons specs were better

"In fact, they are better in some ways than your 747's
(747 freq response 20Hz-26,000Hz)"
actually its 20-33000 with EE tape, and thats only fair since your using type IV which has even better specs than EE. the ee will still win, and if you have a deck with noise reduction like someone else said.... sorry the nak is not in the performance ballpark

remember that is at -20db, lets compare dragon vs 747 or vs a teac x2000r at zero, not -20 then it will be a test. and the reel will win, and im not gonna just say mine, but any x1000 2000 or 747 will win that competition, since you have the equipment, show me wrong.

and again, i love the dragon, but im sorry your arguing physics, and that makes no sense, the cassette tape WILL NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PERFORM BETTER THAN AN EQUAL QUALITY REEL PERIOD. 4X THE SPEED DOUBLE THE TRACK SIZE, THIS ISNT AN ARGUMENT. and the 909 STILL isnt as good reel to compare against, if you said that it sounded the same as your x2000r then i might be impressed or call bs but the 909 i honestly believe the dragon could potentially outperform it.

also so what if im comparing it to consumer or commercial machines, and by the way all the machines i said in this post are CONSUMER not PRO, and regardless, if a pro reel deck costs me less than a dragon, i really dont care what it is, im comparing them , in this day and age, performance is key, and commercial vs consumer reel means nothing to me at this vintage.
 
and yes we dont listen with our ears, so honestly this is stupid, opinionated, and bias on all sides. but we are comparing specs nonetheless, and i am attempting to be unbias, when im expressing an opinion other than a fact i state that, and i feel that IMHO the dragon honestly is one of the best decks to grace the face of the earth, but dont argue dragon vs reel to reel, just dont, i mean really, flogging a dead horse, and falsely flogging it, physics wins.
 
ssmith3046 said:
How can you crown the ZXL the winner without having a Dragon to compare it to? I have a Dragon but no ZXL so I can't say which one is better or sounds better. Did you mean that the ZXL wins over the AKAI?
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I never said the ZXL wins over the the AKAI I just stated it would be very tough to decide which one sounds better.

I never said the ZXL sounds better than the Dragon, I just think it looks better.

In recent history, I have not heard a Dragon. I did know a few people who owned them BITD and they were awesome sounding machines. My ZXL is the only one I have seen or heard and it competes just fine with all the other sources in my system.

The ZXL is a real beauty to look at. Definitely full figured! I have the external Dolby C processor, but the deck does not have type IV capability (at least that I know of?).

I've been told the ZXL has the most sophisticated auto azimuth for recording where it calibrates using 4 different frequencies where other decks use just one frequency.

Again, I have never compared them directly but the Dragon with its auto azimuth playback should get the most out of any recorded tape.

I believe the Dragon also has a unique drive system that guarantees accurate tape travel speed for the entire tape? I guess no other deck does this?
 
captaingamez said:
vidguy, you can LOOK at specs all day, why dont you test both of your machines on equipment versus eachother and then post the results, til then i just see words, not graphs.
Click to expand...


I'll get on that ASAP. I'm curious myself.

To be clear, I never said I thought that the Dragon (or any cassette deck),
was better than open reel, as you said, you can't beat physics.

I reacted to the implication that there was such a huge gulf.
That's my contention.

I just don't hear very much difference.

In the meantime
I'll work to get some decent measurements.

How 'bout you run your 747 through the same:
Let's start out with basics.

Freq Response
S/N
W/F
THD

I'll use "AudioTester" for the graphing, and post a screenshot of the W/F meter

I'll run my Dragon, ZX-7 and RT-909. You run your 747 (or any other deck.)
To be fair, at least stick to 7.5ips, 1/4 track.

I'm not sure what it proves in the end, as I've already agreed that I can't beat R2R with a cassette.
I think however, that with real-world measurements, you'll see how close it can actually get.

We can post back in a month, it will give plenty of time.
 
If my Dragon or CR7E ever gets to sound better than my Open Reel decks, I would emidiately sell the latter.

Someone said that if you want the best sounding gear, just read the specs.

Hillarious.......................
 
i actually would really like to do this too, but i unfortunately do not have a good sound card or audiotester, however, if anyone in the phoenix area or possibly even a bit farther, wants to help on this one, and help me test my 747 and a few other tape decks of mine, please PM me, I will travel for this, not too crazy far but ill travel.

the other possibility is I could have a guy I know named shawn who owns Audio Video Choices here in phoenix, but im not sure he will be able to work it in his schedule.

we'll see what happens, but i am definitely excited to see ANY results on this since it has been a matter of debate for soooooo long, its time we shed some light on this.

your right about something else vidguy, in the end, im not sure what it will actually prove either considering we all listen differently, but I have seen a zxl get INCREDIBLY close to consumer reels even surpasing some of them, so the dragon......., we will find out!!!!!!!


NO ONE EVER SAID "IF YOU WANT THE BEST EQUIPMENT READ THE SPECS", NO ONE, THATS TOTALLY ASININE.
 
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captaingamez said:
no, no it isnt, not even close.
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It's ok to admit that your hearing is not capable of distinguishing nuances or even determining shat's good sound quality.
That's what's goijng on when people on audio fora talk about measuring differences in quality.

But what's the point when you can't take advantage of those differences in any way?
 
i follow what your getting at and i understand what your saying, most of us, myself included, probably cant hear to 20khz, I can pretty much attest to the fact that i cant hear beyond about 15,900 hz. that said, how do YOU measure better, if everything is already in the range of human hearing? i mean so your measure of quality is basically how well it performs between 30 and 16000 hz? thats not good enough for me. and to some degree i feel that with the expanded frequency range of equipment, also reflects an ability to capture more in general than another machine with lower specs, regardless if those specs are within human hearing.


in other words, if your machine's specs are "20hz to 16 khz at -20db" are you telling me, that machine isnt using all of its range and capabiliity just capturing that range?, and that a machine with a spec of "20hz to 33khz at -20db" would not capture more, and do it more precisely in the entire spectrum than the former, which is using its entire capability to just capture the human hearing range?

i beg to differ, im not saying that in every case its "better specs better machine", and im not one to sit here and say "oh machine A. does 20hz to 20000 khz, while machine B ONLY does 21hz to 19500khz so it must not be as good" but if your specs for comparison are far enough off, then i dont see how your in the same ballpark.
or maybe i have no idea what im talking about?


how bout we invent a computer program that listens to the same two songs from two pieces of equipment and decides which one played it better by examining a digital copy and comparing the three in frequency response of the particular song, that is what we quite honestly need, til then its all subjective, which i have said before.
 
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Normo said:
nakamichi deck? I have never heard one and wondered if it truly bettered the zx 7 or 9, or the CR 7, or the 681, 682 zx etc? And if it really does sound better, what's the technological reason? Thanks Norm
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Yes. For my ears, that is. But I am a pro musician working with world class artists and also have mixed, engineered, and mastered award winning jazz albums.

I have all the top line Nak decks restored by ESL. The Dragon sounds better than all of them including 1000zxl.

Some key areas for me: pitch stability. Only the Dragon is in tune. I have absolute pitch and can tell a 0.1% speed variation. And it makes me physically ill to have the pitch flat.

Steinway D is a love of mine having grown up with one in my house. Grand pianos are not listenable on any deck except the Dragon to me. Probably because of the super low w/f. My ZX-9 comes 2nd but there is about a 8hz pitch deviation from the beginning of a 90 min tape to the end. w/f > 0.03%
makes solo piano, violin, cello, and classical guitar sound unacceptable to my ears.

This is just my 2 cents. I've noticed most people's ears are very happy with I-Phone MP3s... and pre-recorded tapes on a cheap walkman.
 
jazzgene said:
Yes. For my ears, that is. But I am a pro musician working with world class artists and also have mixed, engineered, and mastered award winning jazz albums.

I have all the top line Nak decks restored by ESL. The Dragon sounds better than all of them including 1000zxl.

Some key areas for me: pitch stability. Only the Dragon is in tune. I have absolute pitch and can tell a 0.1% speed variation. And it makes me physically ill to have the pitch flat.

Steinway D is a love of mine having grown up with one in my house. Grand pianos are not listenable on any deck except the Dragon to me. Probably because of the super low w/f. My ZX-9 comes 2nd but there is about a 8hz pitch deviation from the beginning of a 90 min tape to the end. w/f > 0.03%
makes solo piano, violin, cello, and classical guitar sound unacceptable to my ears.

This is just my 2 cents. I've noticed most people's ears are very happy with I-Phone MP3s... and pre-recorded tapes on a cheap walkman.
Click to expand...

Very interesting observation.
 
jazzgene said:
I've noticed most people's ears are very happy with I-Phone MP3s... and pre-recorded tapes on a cheap walkman.
Click to expand...

Oh lovely Art, in how many grey hours,
When life's fierce orbit ensnared me,
Have you kindled my heart to warm love,
Carried me away into a better world!

How often has a sigh escaping from your harp,
A sweet, sacred chord of yours
Opened up for me the heaven of better times,
Oh lovely Art, for that I thank you!

"An die Musik" ( "To Music"), music by Franz Schubert, lyrics by Franz von Schober.

English translation from the original text in German ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_die_Musik )
 
guiller said:
Oh lovely Art, in how many grey hours,
When life's fierce orbit ensnared me,
Have you kindled my heart to warm love,
Carried me away into a better world!

How often has a sigh escaping from your harp,
A sweet, sacred chord of yours
Opened up for me the heaven of better times,
Oh lovely Art, for that I thank you!

"An die Musik" ( "To Music"), music by Franz Schubert, lyrics by Franz von Schober.

English translation from the original text in German ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_die_Musik )
Click to expand...

With a pair of good head phones, his music (in English) sounds
good enough from my Ipod that my ears don't bleed :D. Does my Revox played thru my Klisch Corwalls sound more accurate and deeper richer bass etc.yes. I too played a violin in grade school(GDAE) and Jr. High so I do understand sharps and flatts and how they are produced but at 62 I have learned to adjust to the times and choose a format that pleases ME.... and I own them all as each has a purpose with strenghts and weakness. ROCK on:music:
 
captaingamez said:
i follow what your getting at and i understand what your saying, most of us, myself included, probably cant hear to 20khz, I can pretty much attest to the fact that i cant hear beyond about 15,900 hz. that said, how do YOU measure better, if everything is already in the range of human hearing? i mean so your measure of quality is basically how well it performs between 30 and 16000 hz? thats not good enough for me. and to some degree i feel that with the expanded frequency range of equipment, also reflects an ability to capture more in general than another machine with lower specs, regardless if those specs are within human hearing.


in other words, if your machine's specs are "20hz to 16 khz at -20db" are you telling me, that machine isnt using all of its range and capabiliity just capturing that range?, and that a machine with a spec of "20hz to 33khz at -20db" would not capture more, and do it more precisely in the entire spectrum than the former, which is using its entire capability to just capture the human hearing range?

i beg to differ, im not saying that in every case its "better specs better machine", and im not one to sit here and say "oh machine A. does 20hz to 20000 khz, while machine B ONLY does 21hz to 19500khz so it must not be as good" but if your specs for comparison are far enough off, then i dont see how your in the same ballpark.
or maybe i have no idea what im talking about?


how bout we invent a computer program that listens to the same two songs from two pieces of equipment and decides which one played it better by examining a digital copy and comparing the three in frequency response of the particular song, that is what we quite honestly need, til then its all subjective, which i have said before.
Click to expand...


After that svada, I reckon you won't need many Data Sheeds to decide which deck to choose as it seems you only care about Frequecy Response.
;-)
 
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