Nak dragon question. Is it really the best sounding

[captaingamez]

no i dont care only about frequency resoponse, i kind of just said that. i care about which one sounds better.

it seems you only care about..........?, im not following.

what was your point, cause thus far you havent made one.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Thus far, for me, a decent open reel exceeds any cassette machine made. Especially in wow/flutter performance. Scrape flutter and pitch accuracy are major cassette weaknesses. And also the need for NR. In magnetic recording, there is no substitute for cubic inches. Meaning the faster the tape speed, the wider the tape tracks, the better the sound quality. That said, the Nakamichi machines on average are among the best cassette machines available. ReVox, Studer, Tandberg, B&O, and Eumig are other names to know in the field. And there are some high end Japanese machines which are contenders even if not quite the best.

 

[ssmith3046]

My Dragon isn't going anywhere.

 

[Ultralyd]

My Dragon stays here as well.
It has been serviced and vaccuum packed and stored in the basement together with the CR7E, A Revox B710 mkII and several other decks after purchasing a mint Tandberg TCD 910 last spring.

Only the best deserves space on the shelves in the dedicated listening room.

 

[guiller]

My Dragon stays here as well.
It has been serviced and vaccuum packed and stored in the basement together with the CR7E, A Revox B710 mkII and several other decks after purchasing a mint Tandberg TCD 910 last spring.

Only the best deserves space on the shelves in the dedicated listening room.

Congratulations for such a superb collection!

 

[LAB3]

My Dragon stays here as well.
It has been serviced and vaccuum packed and stored in the basement together with the CR7E, A Revox B710 mkII and several other decks after purchasing a mint Tandberg TCD 910 last spring.

Only the best deserves space on the shelves in the dedicated listening room.

Nice collection...:thmbsp: I was told a "cap" setting in a drawer for 30 years and never installed should NOT be used. Hope the basement has central heat and air. I would play those machines every few months and keep them moving. Non use on a Nak cassette is really hard one the idler tire and capstain belt (BX series). Not sure that a vacuum seal helps, hope so it would be a bummer to un pack one years later only to find a bad "cap"or who knows. More so on a Revox now not so much a Nak.. I will email Jack at J&M the North American Rexox Dist. for parts and Service and ask him about vacuum pack on a Revox and ask how it ages the Rifa and Franko etc caps..

We purchased our Revox new in 1979(link) look at all the Franko caps and the oil filled phase motor run caps that seal gets brittle and leaks oil on the transport board after 30 years. Tinman (Marc) restored Pop's MkIV Dolby and stripped it to bare frame, new heads, cleaned and oiled motor bearings etc link has pic's from a complete tear down. Not a check up and oil/lube and scope it or just replace the known caps that go bad in the tape path way. Like most do and adjust Bias and azimuth. Only to have it fail a year or two year later.... YMMV One and Done for a daily user not a closet queen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43284454@N04/sets/72157627387811783/

click on pic's to enlarge. I am not saying the service you had done was Not done correctly just showing I too have a vintage Revox that is like new...I use it several times a week to record my late parents LP's on tape now that I am retired. wish I had your Dragon ( or any of the 3 head Naks)and the Revox B710

 

[EADGBE]

I own a 682ZX, CR-7A, ZX-7, ZX-9, RX-505, 680ZX, and a few other Nakamichi decks.

You might say I collect them!

I also service Nakamichi decks, and I have serviced a couple of Dragons.

In my opinion, the Dragon is a stunning machine...but to my ears, it is not the best sounding Nak. It's in the top 5, but it's not number 1.

As far as my humble collection goes, my two top favorites over the Dragon are the CR-7A and the 682ZX, with the ZX-9 running a VERY close second, just ahead of the ZX-7. (Actually, there are days when I prefer the sound of my ZX-7 over my ZX-9, but that's another story...)

I have done a head-to-head listening test with a customer's Dragon that I had just restored. I put it up against my 682ZX, and my deck easily sounded better than the Dragon.

Don't get me wrong--it WAS a close call. But there is a warmth in the bass and lower-midrange in my 682ZX that was simply lacking in the Dragon. They both did a nice job with the upper frequencies, with the Dragon ever so slightly "peaky" in the treble end.

The CR-7A sounds better than the Dragon, too...but in a different way from the 682ZX. The CR-7A sounds almost "digital" in its precision. Not as warm as the 682ZX, but so darn accurate that you conclude that the 682ZX must be coloring the bass somehow, and the CR-7A is therefore the REAL sound of the tape....I could go on and on.

Bottom Line: The Dragon is a masterpiece of engineering, and I'm sure I'll own one someday. But there are better sounding Nakamichi decks. :yes:

 

[jazzgene]

I own a 682ZX, CR-7A, ZX-7, ZX-9, RX-505, 680ZX, and a few other Nakamichi decks.

You might say I collect them!

I also service Nakamichi decks, and I have serviced a couple of Dragons.

In my opinion, the Dragon is a stunning machine...but to my ears, it is not the best sounding Nak. It's in the top 5, but it's not number 1.

As far as my humble collection goes, my two top favorites over the Dragon are the CR-7A and the 682ZX, with the ZX-9 running a VERY close second, just ahead of the ZX-7. (Actually, there are days when I prefer the sound of my ZX-7 over my ZX-9, but that's another story...)

I have done a head-to-head listening test with a customer's Dragon that I had just restored. I put it up against my 682ZX, and my deck easily sounded better than the Dragon.

Don't get me wrong--it WAS a close call. But there is a warmth in the bass and lower-midrange in my 682ZX that was simply lacking in the Dragon. They both did a nice job with the upper frequencies, with the Dragon ever so slightly "peaky" in the treble end.

The CR-7A sounds better than the Dragon, too...but in a different way from the 682ZX. The CR-7A sounds almost "digital" in its precision. Not as warm as the 682ZX, but so darn accurate that you conclude that the 682ZX must be coloring the bass somehow, and the CR-7A is therefore the REAL sound of the tape....I could go on and on.

Bottom Line: The Dragon is a masterpiece of engineering, and I'm sure I'll own one someday. But there are better sounding Nakamichi decks. :yes:

Interesting. CR-7A does not do it for me. Prefer ZX-9, 1000zxl over CR7. Dragon is the best sounding to me. That is why we all have to listen for ourselves.

 

[perryinva]

I could have written EADGBEs post, except that I prefer the Dragons sound, like Gene, over the 682zx, and I've not found the bass to ever be lacking in a Dragon. The speed stability is just so important to me, and while I no longer can hear past 16kHz, that wavering of a sustained note can drive me crazy on lesser decks. The 682zx, like it's previous incarnations, have a fairly colored bass area, and is clearly seen in a frequency plot. It is a VERY pleasant deck to listen to, though, and one of my favs for sure. Gene is right on the money, we have to listen for ourselves in order to decide what "better" is. Of all the Nak decks, the Dragon is both the hardest to get right, and simultaneously the one with the largest number of potential problems that can manifest themselves depending on hours of use, serial number, etc, etc and prevent it from being capable of meeting it's potential. A Dragon like Genes, totally restored by ESL, can't be compared to the average ones we come across. I just finished up some minor mechanical/upgrade work on a Dragon for a member that he had had electronically upgraded previously for a considerable cost, that is really quite stunning in sound and performance, with the lowest THD I've ever measured on a cassette deck. It just means, to me, that the RIGHT Dragon (like the RIGHT 3014a) can really blow you away. Finding that one is another story completely. It's interesting to me how many people come up with the same impression of the CR-7. I'd never say it was digital in sound, that's too insulting, but I concur completely it is extremely accurate and may be the most consistent REAL sound of tape. It certainly generates very clean and in phase recordings. But the recordings on my better Dragons have more depth to me, (maybe just preferred coloration?) and the variations in azimuth of so many tapes, it easily corrects, plus the dual direct drive, just puts the right Dragon a step above for me. I'm not fond of the Dragons ergonomics, and there are just some tapes that the Dragon simply can't play. I've more than one pre-recorded tape, that is outside the Dragons range of auto adjust. They really should have made the NAAC defeatable, or had a Manual/Auto switch.

 

[Ultralyd]

Nice collection...:thmbsp: I was told a "cap" setting in a drawer for 30 years and never installed should NOT be used. Hope the basement has central heat and air. I would play those machines every few months and keep them moving. Non use on a Nak cassette is really hard one the idler tire and capstain belt (BX series). Not sure that a vacuum seal helps, hope so it would be a bummer to un pack one years later only to find a bad "cap"or who knows. More so on a Revox now not so much a Nak.. I will email Jack at J&M the North American Rexox Dist. for parts and Service and ask him about vacuum pack on a Revox and ask how it ages the Rifa and Franko etc caps..

We purchased our Revox new in 1979(link) look at all the Franko caps and the oil filled phase motor run caps that seal gets brittle and leaks oil on the transport board after 30 years. Tinman (Marc) restored Pop's MkIV Dolby and stripped it to bare frame, new heads, cleaned and oiled motor bearings etc link has pic's from a complete tear down. Not a check up and oil/lube and scope it or just replace the known caps that go bad in the tape path way. Like most do and adjust Bias and azimuth. Only to have it fail a year or two year later.... YMMV One and Done for a daily user not a closet queen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43284454@N04/sets/72157627387811783/

click on pic's to enlarge. I am not saying the service you had done was Not done correctly just showing I too have a vintage Revox that is like new...I use it several times a week to record my late parents LP's on tape now that I am retired. wish I had your Dragon ( or any of the 3 head Naks)and the Revox B710

Thanks a lot for this very informative post.

I will consult my service points (different one for each brand) if he did anything to prevent these tendencies.

I will motion them if needed.

I have the vaccuum machine at hand.
I think this packing prevents some tear and wear.

Our house is up high so our basement will not be flooded.

 

[LAB3]

Thanks a lot for this very informative post.

I will consult my service points (different one for each brand) if he did anything to prevent these tendencies.

I will motion them if needed.

I have the vaccuum machine at hand.
I think this packing prevents some tear and wear.

Our house is up high so our basement will not be flooded.

I was concerned about the basement being NOT in a climate controlled room. Most basements even dry (never flooded) tend to get humid and damp in cold of the winter etc. if not in a HVAC room. The extreem heat to cold changes is what I would worry about over the years of Non use.. I have no idea how well vacuum packing will help a stored recorder. I do know on the German made "caps" on Revox machines tend to fail in 20 plus years. I have seen a NOS Revox B-77 in a unopened box that was in a coset for 25 years that was sold and 5 months later from being opened up and used it quit and had to have the Franko and Rifa "caps" replaced.....in fact he had done what I paid extra for and every cap was replaced and and new pinch roller and counter belt replaced. Any NAK belt that has set for years has a "curve" in it where it was wrapped around a pulley and Not moved for many years will slip and fail after the machine has set and is placed back in service YMMV on this too. But it made sence to me when I read this after I have replaced the capstain belt and idler tire that some Naks(BX series) have, fail and slip from Non use.If I was lucky enought to own as many NAK machines as some of our members :thmbsp: I would rotate all of them in my two systems in both rooms and keep them ALL in motion.

 

[EADGBE]

I have to admit a very strong bias in favor of the 682ZX which, as a couple of folks have said, most certainly has some slight coloration in the sound. If I had to admit which deck is the most accurate between it and my CR-7A, the CR would win hands down.

 

[captaingamez]

I do not own any grouping of equipment that sits unused, i do not understand that. and vacuum packing doesnt save your caps, when im not using a deck it gets sold, my stuff NEVER sits more than a week without at least beint played or sold, and ill tell you what, those decks would all be on my shelves, or i would actually get scolded my by wife. i think a revox on a basement shelf my woman would kill me for.

frankly

b710
cr7
tcd910

why would you ever vacuum pack and seal any of these, this is really quite unfortunate, LISTEN TO THEM, at very least dont insult them like that. personally i like the b710 ALOT more sound wise than the dragon but that is my personal opinion.

 

[Ultralyd]

I do not own any grouping of equipment that sits unused, i do not understand that. and vacuum packing doesnt save your caps, when im not using a deck it gets sold, my stuff NEVER sits more than a week without at least beint played or sold, and ill tell you what, those decks would all be on my shelves, or i would actually get scolded my by wife. i think a revox on a basement shelf my woman would kill me for.

frankly

b710
cr7
tcd910

why would you ever vacuum pack and seal any of these, this is really quite unfortunate, LISTEN TO THEM, at very least dont insult them like that. personally i like the b710 ALOT more sound wise than the dragon but that is my personal opinion.

My wife kills me 5 times a day anyway.
;-)

I am sorry but it seems like you misunderstood me.
The TCD 910 is in daily use and the TCD 3014A is another deck in regular use (when copying cassette tape) as being the best of the bunch I own.

I am not only using cassette decks to enjoy music.
I have several open reel decks as well and in daily use I have the Studer A80.
Besides that, I also enjoy music reproduced via my TT, CD, Tuner, Server and other hardware.

However...
My life is not only music and hifi.

And with the decksfrom my basement, a day wouldn't have hours enough to enjoy.

Realizing the money tied up in these decks is not really an object for me.
Maybe my kids or grand children will enjoy them one day.

That would give me more pleasure than selling them.

 

[LAB3]

Studer A820 is a AWSOME deck......... :thmbsp: the down side when they do need repair they are Expensive to fix.. more so then a Revox A or B or PR series. hey they can ALL get in your back pocket sometimes. :yes: I have a friend in the UK (Terry) and when he calls (Skpye) he shows me a different Revox or Studer machine. He has been collecting R2R for 40 plus years. He is single and his home is lined with shelves with R2R on them and rows of stands with Studer,Revox and Otari Pro machines on rollers. AWSOME collection . I am amazed every time I see his collection of different brands of logo metal reels and all the Euro NOS sealed tape he has collected.

 

[zedex]

I don't know if i would ever vacuum pack my stuff but if i did i would have a pack of desiccant with it to absorb any moisture that was trapped initially.

As for the Dragon being the best sounding? Depends on your taste.

 

[jazzgene]

I could have written EADGBEs post, except that I prefer the Dragons sound, like Gene, over the 682zx, and I've not found the bass to ever be lacking in a Dragon. The speed stability is just so important to me, and while I no longer can hear past 16kHz, that wavering of a sustained note can drive me crazy on lesser decks. The 682zx, like it's previous incarnations, have a fairly colored bass area, and is clearly seen in a frequency plot. It is a VERY pleasant deck to listen to, though, and one of my favs for sure. Gene is right on the money, we have to listen for ourselves in order to decide what "better" is. Of all the Nak decks, the Dragon is both the hardest to get right, and simultaneously the one with the largest number of potential problems that can manifest themselves depending on hours of use, serial number, etc, etc and prevent it from being capable of meeting it's potential. A Dragon like Genes, totally restored by ESL, can't be compared to the average ones we come across. I just finished up some minor mechanical/upgrade work on a Dragon for a member that he had had electronically upgraded previously for a considerable cost, that is really quite stunning in sound and performance, with the lowest THD I've ever measured on a cassette deck. It just means, to me, that the RIGHT Dragon (like the RIGHT 3014a) can really blow you away. Finding that one is another story completely. It's interesting to me how many people come up with the same impression of the CR-7. I'd never say it was digital in sound, that's too insulting, but I concur completely it is extremely accurate and may be the most consistent REAL sound of tape. It certainly generates very clean and in phase recordings. But the recordings on my better Dragons have more depth to me, (maybe just preferred coloration?) and the variations in azimuth of so many tapes, it easily corrects, plus the dual direct drive, just puts the right Dragon a step above for me. I'm not fond of the Dragons ergonomics, and there are just some tapes that the Dragon simply can't play. I've more than one pre-recorded tape, that is outside the Dragons range of auto adjust. They really should have made the NAAC defeatable, or had a Manual/Auto switch.

Brilliant, Perry. In my opinion, the CR7 does not do a better job with PB azimuth. Why? The music Dragon can't zero in, even with my ear using manual control, I can't make an accurate setting. I need high frequency and the energy on tape to make a accurate homing in with ear. Dragon will do that automatically anyway and it is amazingly correct. Far better than my ear in getting the phase correct.

The thing about the CR7a that bothers me is that albums I've been part of seems to lose distance. Dragon has a much more accurate image to my ears. The CR7 seems to put the sound stage further away. I am no technician but as a serious musician, I constantly speak to audio engineers to get what I am hearing reproduced correctly. To a point where I am mixing and mastering the final product.

 

[Lapis]

I could have written EADGBEs post, except that I prefer the Dragons sound, like Gene, over the 682zx, and I've not found the bass to ever be lacking in a Dragon. The speed stability is just so important to me, and while I no longer can hear past 16kHz, that wavering of a sustained note can drive me crazy on lesser decks. The 682zx, like it's previous incarnations, have a fairly colored bass area, and is clearly seen in a frequency plot. It is a VERY pleasant deck to listen to, though, and one of my favs for sure. Gene is right on the money, we have to listen for ourselves in order to decide what "better" is. Of all the Nak decks, the Dragon is both the hardest to get right, and simultaneously the one with the largest number of potential problems that can manifest themselves depending on hours of use, serial number, etc, etc and prevent it from being capable of meeting it's potential. A Dragon like Genes, totally restored by ESL, can't be compared to the average ones we come across. I just finished up some minor mechanical/upgrade work on a Dragon for a member that he had had electronically upgraded previously for a considerable cost, that is really quite stunning in sound and performance, with the lowest THD I've ever measured on a cassette deck. It just means, to me, that the RIGHT Dragon (like the RIGHT 3014a) can really blow you away. Finding that one is another story completely. It's interesting to me how many people come up with the same impression of the CR-7. I'd never say it was digital in sound, that's too insulting, but I concur completely it is extremely accurate and may be the most consistent REAL sound of tape. It certainly generates very clean and in phase recordings. But the recordings on my better Dragons have more depth to me, (maybe just preferred coloration?) and the variations in azimuth of so many tapes, it easily corrects, plus the dual direct drive, just puts the right Dragon a step above for me. I'm not fond of the Dragons ergonomics, and there are just some tapes that the Dragon simply can't play. I've more than one pre-recorded tape, that is outside the Dragons range of auto adjust. They really should have made the NAAC defeatable, or had a Manual/Auto switch.

What's so insulting to say about the CR-7 that it has digital-like sound?

 

[guiller]

What's so insulting to say about the CR-7 that it has digital-like sound?

I´m surprised by some of the postings in this thread. IMHO none of the criticism that has been written above regarding the CR-7, corresponds to my own experience, but of course, personal views and subjective opinions are all valuable and respectable. It´s interesting that market values don´t seem to reflect much of this discussion, however.

 

[captaingamez]

personally i have only heard the dragon, but i would prefer the cr-7a. I just feel like its the more versatile machine, dual azimuth adjustment and all, plus the easier to work on factor plays in in that decision. and this is sheer opinion but i think the cr7 looks better, that is i suppose unless the cr7 sounds that much worse, which i just cannot imagine. I am immensely happy with my 670zx though, the imaging is fantastic.