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NEED ADVICE… for bright harsh sounding records

A

A Montreal

Member
Hi all,

My system is presently…

Thorens TD125 with SME 3009 (first heavier version I believe) and Ortofon 2M Bronze -> Graham Slee Special Edition 2 -> Bryston 3B (the old one) -> B&W DM640 (still in excellent condition, not used very much). The room is small… 9’ x 12’.

When listening to new records and many others, it sounds lovely… Engaging, deep/wide image, etc. But many records are aggressively bright (eg. old Led Zeppelin records, even some new ones that are mastered brightly, like Beck’s Sea Change).

When I listen to films I go from through a Mojo Chord -> Bryston 3B -> B&W DM640. It’s perfect.

Firstly… Seeing as I don’t have a volume control on the turntable chain, I am planning to replace the Graham Slee SE2 with something - very possibly a Graham Slee Accession. I also imagine it will sound better. If you have any suggestions of phono preamps (with an extra volume control) that would be glorious with my system, I am open.

Secondly and more importantly… what is the culprit of rendering my system bright. Is it cartridge, the phono amp, the power amp, the speakers?

One idea I had was getting a second cartridge that I could swap in for bright records. But this requires being able to get a proper tracking weight while going back and forth. Anyone do this? Is it easy with an SME 3009? Any suggestions of cartridges if we go this route?

Might a mellower phono amp be the solution?

Thanks for any input.

Andrew
 
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Can't find anything on the internet about that model B&W speaker, Bryston amps can be quite neutral, if the speakers are bright the amp will reveal it.
 
Might want to see about a shim to run your Bronze "ass down" a tad or adjust VTA to achieve same. The Reds benefit from this, might work similarly with the better models up the chain.
 
The DM640 is a large floorstander with dual bass drivers, large midrange and late1980's metal tweeter, possibly with loudness like tone curve, with slightly boosted treble to compensate for large amounts of bass in typical room. And yours is probably too small for them. Bryston is also probably on the bright side, as is the cartridge.
You could use a more mellow sounding cartridge as an easiest solution (Grado, Sumiko, Nagaoka...).
 
You may want to measure the total capacitance of your system (phono cables + tonearm wires) before it meets the phono preamp. The Graham Slee has 100pf load and the Ortofon Bronze recommends 150pf to 300pf total. With some cartridges, higher than recommended capacitance can cause high frequency peaking well within the audio band.
 
On bright recordings, such as Epic jazz records, I change cartridges (already mounted and aligned on a headshell). The V15-IV is perfect for these. For me, it’s the easiest solution. I really don’t like using the treble knob, or fussing with loading. Or changing preamps.
 
HamboneF18 said:
On bright recordings, such as Epic jazz records, I change cartridges (already mounted and aligned on a headshell). The V15-IV is perfect for these. For me, it’s the easiest solution. I really don’t like using the treble knob, or fussing with loading. Or changing preamps.
Click to expand...

dualhead said:
Switching to a conical can mellow some harsher records out too.
Click to expand...
These would be my suggestions too. A good conical, and/or a cartridge with a warmer, more rolled off sound, such as a Shure.
 
What weight are you tracking the Bronze at? Did you use a gauge to determine this? Light tracking can cause lack of bass, or new some new reissues are just mastered like crap (since you said it's not on all records).
 
dualhead said:
Might want to see about a shim to run your Bronze "ass down" a tad or adjust VTA to achieve same. The Reds benefit from this, might work similarly with the better models up the chain.
Click to expand...
Interesting approach though I do love how it sounds on well-mixed/mastered albums. Sea Change is an odd one because it gets quite bright though I love the production.
 
Ortofon + Bryston + metal dome tweeter = bright sound, harsh treble. If you like the speakers and wish to keep them, I would install a Shure V15 with Jico SAS/B, Nagaoka MP-300, or Sumiko Amethyst, and change the amp out for something from along the lines of Pass Labs, Mark Levinson or Krell. The Shure, Nag and Sumiko are all warmer then the Ortofon, and the Bryston is better suited to driving large, efficient speakers like Altec or JBL.
 
CrSens said:
The DM640 is a large floorstander with dual bass drivers, large midrange and late1980's metal tweeter, possibly with loudness like tone curve, with slightly boosted treble to compensate for large amounts of bass in typical room. And yours is probably too small for them. Bryston is also probably on the bright side, as is the cartridge.
You could use a more mellow sounding cartridge as an easiest solution (Grado, Sumiko, Nagaoka...).
Click to expand...
This is what I was suspected. I had considered more modern speakers with a mellow top end. I have heard some say that the Wharfedale Evo 4.2 has a mellow end (some even complaining about how mellow they were). They might also be a better size for my room.

Of those cartridges, might there be one that would be a good partner for the Ortofon should I decide to swap back-and-forth with two cartridges, each having their own headshell?

And how difficult is it to swap cartridges on an SME 3009? I imagine getting the weight correct for both is challenging. Perhaps one could use weights for the lighter one?
 
WizardWG4 said:
You may want to measure the total capacitance of your system (phono cables + tonearm wires) before it meets the phono preamp. The Graham Slee has 100pf load and the Ortofon Bronze recommends 150pf to 300pf total. With some cartridges, higher than recommended capacitance can cause high frequency peaking well within the audio band.
Click to expand...
I will have to look into that. Very interesting. I’m wondering… if you are saying that the Graham Slee has a lower load than the Ortofon needs, might it actually work out considering there is also the cables?
 
HamboneF18 said:
On bright recordings, such as Epic jazz records, I change cartridges (already mounted and aligned on a headshell). The V15-IV is perfect for these. For me, it’s the easiest solution. I really don’t like using the treble knob, or fussing with loading. Or changing preamps.
Click to expand...
This is where I am at. Considering that I will be going from the turntable to a phono preamp directly to the power amp, I won’t even have an EQ. So the idea of having two cartridges sounds lovely. That is a shorter cartridge, correct? And other than being a little darker, does it sound nice as well? Would there be a lot of adjustments to do going back and forth from that cartridge to the Ortofon?
 
gadget73 said:
with some records I find its less that there is too much top end, and more that there just isn't enough bottom end. Lots of classic rock is pretty weak in the bass department.
Click to expand...
I definitely understand what you’re saying. Some records don’t have any bottom, but also like top. But I have to have some records that have bent bottom, and that pierce. As the example I was giving, Beck’s Sea Change. Another one is Joni Mitchell’s Court and Spark… Some of the elements are oddly EQed.
 
Hajidub said:
What weight are you tracking the Bronze at? Did you use a gauge to determine this? Light tracking can cause lack of bass, or new some new reissues are just mastered like crap (since you said it's not on all records).
Click to expand...
Yes. I had it professionally set up and it is at the proper tracking weight… 1.8g
 
ripblade said:
Ortofon + Bryston + metal dome tweeter = bright sound, harsh treble. If you like the speakers and wish to keep them, I would install a Shure V15 with Jico SAS/B, Nagaoka MP-300, or Sumiko Amethyst, and change the amp out for something from along the lines of Pass Labs, Mark Levinson or Krell. The Shure, Nag and Sumiko are all warmer then the Ortofon, and the Bryston is better suited to driving large, efficient speakers like Altec or JBL.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the suggestions. I am with you… I suspected that the combination of Ortofon, Bryston, and those speakers produce brightness hell. Though for the mellower albums, it sounds amazing.

For the cartridges, would one of those be mellower but still retain the depth of image and clarity?

As for the power amp, I was hoping no one would suggest that. I suspect that it might be the most expensive part to change at this point. No?

Seeing as I will no longer need an integrated amp, I’m going to sell my very lovely Rotel. I will use the funds from that to change something in the chain. I was imagining getting a better phono stage as well as a mellower cartridge. I could see that fitting in the budget. Not sure the power amp is doable.
 
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