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NEED ADVICE… for bright harsh sounding records

A Montreal said:
My original headshell is in bad shape so I bought a new one from Silente in Italy. It is slotted so we are good on that front. I could buy another one from him to be able to compare the two cartridges (depending on what I try next). And if I choose to sell the Ortofon, I could always get an other option one day seeing as I would still have a second headshell.

Were you one of those who suggested the Nagaoka MP200 as a viable option based on what I’ve been describing?

EDIT: yes, I see that you were. Thanks.
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I think the MP200 is one of several good choices. I also suggest strongly to consider Hana, their high output moving coil cartridges would be a nice bump in performance. This at quite a cost though.

My strong recommendation would be to find a local shop with a good reputation who can sell you a cartridge and align it properly. Local shops can also usually discount better than buying online.
 
If changing the source makes the problem go away (only old records have the problem), then it's the records that are the problem*. Back in the day I used my tone control to resolve the issue. It's a lot easier than changing cartridges, preamps, etc.

*The problem may be that modern records are too "dull" and everything is eq'd for that, causing old records to sound bright. It could also be that final mix preferences were different in the past than today. But at the end of the day, it's the source that is the problem, since changing sources increases or decreases the problem.
 
A Montreal said:
Thank you for the suggestions. I am with you… I suspected that the combination of Ortofon, Bryston, and those speakers produce brightness hell. Though for the mellower albums, it sounds amazing.

For the cartridges, would one of those be mellower but still retain the depth of image and clarity?

As for the power amp, I was hoping no one would suggest that. I suspect that it might be the most expensive part to change at this point. No?

Seeing as I will no longer need an integrated amp, I’m going to sell my very lovely Rotel. I will use the funds from that to change something in the chain. I was imagining getting a better phono stage as well as a mellower cartridge. I could see that fitting in the budget. Not sure the power amp is doable.
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Sorry, didn't see this earlier. You don't have to change everything if you're happy with your other sources. Focussing on just the TT, the Sumiko Amethyst would be a step away from harsh and bright, as would the Darlington Labs phono stages I mentioned earlier. Take one step at a time, change the cartridge out first as Ortofon is not known for warmth (speaking kindly), and I doubt it's a good match for the SME.

Edit: An alternative to the Sumiko would be the Vessel available at LPGear. Generators are of the same family, I believe, and prices should be a little better. The A3SV should be the closest equivalent to the Bronze.
 
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Just a suggestion, but a Schiit Loki is wonderful little device for dialing in (or out) just a bit of eq to fatten up the bass, roll off the highs, or whatever meets your needs. I can’t imagine living without mine.
 
lokerola said:
Just a suggestion, but a Schiit Loki is wonderful little device for dialing in (or out) just a bit of eq to fatten up the bass, roll off the highs, or whatever meets your needs. I can’t imagine living without mine.
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I think suggesting anything to a mastering or recording engineer is a fool's errand. He will in the end do whatever he wants or thinks is right.
 
RobRoy said:
If changing the source makes the problem go away (only old records have the problem), then it's the records that are the problem*. Back in the day I used my tone control to resolve the issue. It's a lot easier than changing cartridges, preamps, etc.

*The problem may be that modern records are too "dull" and everything is eq'd for that, causing old records to sound bright. It could also be that final mix preferences were different in the past than today. But at the end of the day, it's the source that is the problem, since changing sources increases or decreases the problem.
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I would agree. The vast differences in mixes does make up most of what I am experiencing. Eg. James Taylor’s Sweet Baby James sounds SMOOTH compared to say, my original mono copy of Revolver. I have to EQ that one to enjoy it. In the end, I am one of those that vastly prefers Giles Martin’s remixes of the Beatles’ albums… More body to the signal, a more complete harmonic content… less mid-focussed. But even some modern ones like Beck’s Sea Change is too bright. Pretty sure it’s the mastering in that case. Seeing as I do music production, when it comes time to listen to records I want mellow, even when it’s heavy rock. I like my ears to relax.

But if I am honest, even the mellow sounding albums could do with a chiller top end. As such I will be trying a different cartridge as proposed. Then maybe look at other components. But if the cartridge does most of the change, I will stick to that for a while. Perhaps eventually I will put a simple unbalanced EQ in the chain. We shall see.

I am grateful for all the input!
 
CrSens said:
I think suggesting anything to a mastering or recording engineer is a fool's errand. He will in the end do whatever he wants or thinks is right.
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I am actually open to the idea. My Manley Massive Passive does not belong in this room. It’s quite ridiculous.
 
ripblade said:
Sorry, didn't see this earlier. You don't have to change everything if you're happy with your other sources. Focussing on just the TT, the Sumiko Amethyst would be a step away from harsh and bright, as would the Darlington Labs phono stages I mentioned earlier. Take one step at a time, change the cartridge out first as Ortofon is not known for warmth (speaking kindly), and I doubt it's a good match for the SME.

Edit: An alternative to the Sumiko would be the Vessel available at LPGear. Generators are of the same family, I believe, and prices should be a little better. The A3SV should be the closest equivalent to the Bronze.
Click to expand...
I would be curious to see what either a new power amp or a new pair of speakers would bring to my entire system. I just won’t be changing both as that is taking me too far out of my budget. I still have to complete the acoustics of the studio.

I will start with the cartridge, then either the power amp or the speakers to see what that brings. Not sure which to go with but I will experiment.

Perhaps the Graham Slee Accession is neutral enough for now. Are you familiar with it?
 
CrSens said:
I am following the thread from the beginning, I am pretty certain my feeling is correct.
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Haha… I will have to re-read the thread. Maybe you’re right. But I hadn’t considered getting a simple EQ for the phono portion of my system and I’m not adverse to the idea.

As for a possible cartridge choice, when someone suggests one, I look it up and try to figure out through people’s descriptions the general direction it goes from the only one I know at this point, 2M Bronze.

And changing the power amp or speakers only became a serious thought when someone mentioned the combo I have being bright. A little test proved that it is possible that the 3B tends towards bright. So, I don’t know… Seems like what people bring to the table has influenced my trajectory. Keep it up, people! You rock!
 
ripblade said:
Sorry, didn't see this earlier. You don't have to change everything if you're happy with your other sources. Focussing on just the TT, the Sumiko Amethyst would be a step away from harsh and bright, as would the Darlington Labs phono stages I mentioned earlier. Take one step at a time, change the cartridge out first as Ortofon is not known for warmth (speaking kindly), and I doubt it's a good match for the SME.

Edit: An alternative to the Sumiko would be the Vessel available at LPGear. Generators are of the same family, I believe, and prices should be a little better. The A3SV should be the closest equivalent to the Bronze.
Click to expand...
The Sumiko Amethyst and the Nagaoka MP200 are in my price range.
 
A Montreal said:
Perhaps the Graham Slee Accession is neutral enough for now. Are you familiar with it?
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I've heard of it but not heard it. A phono stage with alternate EQs sounds like it might be a good idea. I prefer discrete class A topologies, but that alone is no guarantee of good sound, either. Some records suck, there's no getting around it.
 
A Montreal said:
Haha… I will have to re-read the thread. Maybe you’re right. But I hadn’t considered getting a simple EQ for the phono portion of my system and I’m not adverse to the idea.

As for a possible cartridge choice, when someone suggests one, I look it up and try to figure out through people’s descriptions the general direction it goes from the only one I know at this point, 2M Bronze.

And changing the power amp or speakers only became a serious thought when someone mentioned the combo I have being bright. A little test proved that it is possible that the 3B tends towards bright. So, I don’t know… Seems like what people bring to the table has influenced my trajectory. Keep it up, people! You rock!
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In that case I can recommend Schiit Loki as well, I am using one to tame a little bright otherwise fine speakers, and as much as equalizers go this one is simple, unobtrusive and transparent. It's more like a slope and tonal balance corrector than an EQ in a classic sense.
 
A Montreal said:
The Sumiko Amethyst and the Nagaoka MP200 are in my price range.
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Tough call as to which is better. The Nag has a boron rod cantilever but a more conventional elliptical stylus; the Amethyst has a finer line stylus but a tubular alloy cantilever. Take your pick. The boron rod for sure will be less bright....
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Too bright for his system. He needs the opposite of SAS. EJ is better for his needs. V 15 Type II improved, with Nico N75EJ stylus ideal for his needs.
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Are you referring to the SAS/B? It's brighter than the OEM VN5MR needle but I wouldn't call it bright, not Ortofon Bronze bright. I suggested the Shure because it was the go to brand for the SME when it was current .
 
If you want to go that rabbit hole, V15 III with NOS stylus would be the most appropriate. Compared to it, Ortofon Blue sounds unsophisticated and messy. I know, I have both.
 
ripblade said:
Are you referring to the SAS/B? It's brighter than the OEM VN5MR needle but I wouldn't call it bright, not Ortofon Bronze bright. I suggested the Shure because it was the go to brand for the SME when it was current .
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For your equipment, OK. His system is bright. He needs the stylus I recommend to tame his excessive bright. System Synergy!
 
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