As mentioned above LP plays a huge role too. I could run my Zep 3 with anything from a M3D to a SAE LT and Immigrant Song would still sound harsh and terrible. AT 91R mellows some LPs by omission, but can only do so much. Du Pre's brown Angel pressings are a prime example.
NEED ADVICE… for bright harsh sounding records
- Thread starter A Montreal
- Start date
A Montreal
Member
Will definitely be upgrading the phono preamp.
What don’t you like about the Nagaoka cartridges?
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Too bright for his system. He needs the opposite of SAS. EJ is better for his needs. V 15 Type II improved, with Nico N75EJ stylus ideal for his needs.
lazycat
Well-Known Member
Good news about the phono amp. They're often an after-thought and experience has taught me that they shouldn't be.
My dislike of Nagaokas is a personal preference - I find them dull and over-priced.
But transducers are very personal things and you must listen for yourself - as you no doubt will.
A Montreal
Member
I was wondering… would it be possible to switch out the tweeter on the DM640 with something mellower?
A Montreal
Member
It’s interesting. In music production we use all sorts of various transducers. It would be odd to rely on only one. I am beginning to think that having at least a couple cartridges and knowing their sound would be the way to go.
lazycat
Well-Known Member
Lot's of people do that. Personally, I prefer one cartridge to 'rule them all', but I've almost always had tonearms with a fixed headshell.
I cant be arsed with the constant fettling. lol
dogscanskate
Super Member
For what it's worth, here are my thoughts: Your problem is not about the gear, it's about the room. You have 108 square feet (9x12)and your system (the gear) is meant to be in a much larger room. Speakers that fit this type of room would be LS3/5a, Linn Kans, ATC scm 7 or 11, even Minimus 7's.... lol. Your speakers are overkill for that room. Buy all the cartridges that you want and I guarantee it will not fix your problem. You have an acoustic problem and if it were my money, I'd spend it on acoustic treatment. The DM640s are not meant for such a small room and reflections off the wall and ceiling will reinforce the high frequencies if you do not treat the walls. That system of yours in the right room could be jaw dropping good.
Ask me how I know! I replaced Proac Response 2.5 (4500$ US) by a pair of Dynaco A 25XL (200$ list cost me 15 or 20). My room was 12x12, the type you don't want. Components have to match the room and investing in room treatments will be the cheapest way to get good music in that room. No cartridge will fix that room!
Ask me how I know! I replaced Proac Response 2.5 (4500$ US) by a pair of Dynaco A 25XL (200$ list cost me 15 or 20). My room was 12x12, the type you don't want. Components have to match the room and investing in room treatments will be the cheapest way to get good music in that room. No cartridge will fix that room!
A Montreal
Member
Thank you for the input. It’s funny… as I am going through this, I just received the plans from an acoustician for my studio. The mix room is 19’ x 17’ x 10’. I will be doing the building of modules and such myself with friends to cut cost and the project will still cost me $10,000.
I hear you with the issue being a small room but in terms of upper-highs and high frequencies (2k and up let’s say), the room isn’t the issue. I have my entire record collection in that room (1500 records) plus treatment on the wall behind me. I do still have to take care of the ceiling, but the room isn’t what is causing issues with the highs. On the other hand, it IS causing issues with the low-mids. That is something else I need to deal with.
All that being said, I am open to trying some smaller speakers in this room. I love the idea. And thank you for the suggestion of models. In the studio, I use active ATC SCM50ASL. They are INSANE!!!
As I mentioned, when I listen to films through my Mojo Chord going directly to the Bryston 3B, it sounds wonderful.
A Montreal
Member
P.S.: Those small ATCs! Consideing my love for ATC, they might fit the bill. Though the price is out of the range of what I wanted to spend on this room.
I can’t believe I am researching them! It has begun.
A Montreal
Member
I again comeback to this post. You hit it on the nail. I did some testing last night and indeed, the combo of Bryston and metal tweeter of the DM640 is wild. I replaced the Bryston 3B (the older black ones) with the power amp of my Rotel integrated amp and boom, the top end mellowed out in a serious and enjoyable way. Unfortunately the lower-mids are not as well defined and there is less oomph. To be expected I guess. So now… I either get speakers with a mellower tweeter (Wharfedale perhaps?) or a mellower power amp (no idea).
Any good pairing suggestions for someone who likes a mellow top but with lots of definition? Bryston 3B with…? Or B&W DM640 with…?
Thanks.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
A friend of mine had an Ortofon Bronze. It tracked well, had nice separation did great above 500 HZ or so but was way to dry for his system. Especially compared to my 20 series Dynavectors. He now has a Denon MC cartridge a 110 Mk II I believe and he is really happy with it. Especially with human voices. He loves Barbara Streisand. Fortunatly his pre-amp has a nice built MC phono stage. So he is very happy.
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SmileyFaceEQ
Super Member
I use a restored ADC equalizer for this purpose. I reduce the highs and slightly boost the low and low mid end.
Any British recordings from the early 70a are twangy and tinny on my system. Likewise, anything with a telecaster has to be eq'd.
Any British recordings from the early 70a are twangy and tinny on my system. Likewise, anything with a telecaster has to be eq'd.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Parametric beats graphics. SAE beats ADC. Sontec mastering equalizer beats all others. Cello Audio Palette is a gem for home use and for studios. Transparency in EQ best. Uncolored best.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
Forgive me if someone answered already but I saw you asked about adjusting the SME.
Adjusting the SME 3009 is easy. You slide a weight to set the tracking weight, and move a bit of fishing line to adjust anti skate. You should get a scale anyway, and you can use it to set the weight when you change cartridges. For anti skate just set up the arm for one cartridge and note the position of the cord, then the other. Then just alternate it beteen these positions. If you have reasonable manual dexterity the swap should take a minute or so once all settings are known. The manual for the 3009 is easy to find online.
One complication with the 3009 is rather than having slotted holes in the headshell, the whole arm base slides back and forth. I would slide it such that it's set up correctly with the ortofon, and then for the second cartridge use a headshell with slotted holes for alignment, so that you don't need to constantly be moving the arm base around.
Now all this said, what do I think is the most elegant solution to your problem, in general?
Well, since the system sounds great with movies, we can eliminate changing anything downstream of the phono preamp. My eyes would target that ortofon. I suggest changing to something like a Nagaoka MP-200 as a safe choice. A Hana high output moving coil is another safe choice, and frankly if you get one you likely will never put the Ortofon back.
In another direction, a relatively cheap cartridge such as a Nagaoka MP-110 would lose a little detail but might give you better balance and ultimately more enjoyable sound.
Adjusting the SME 3009 is easy. You slide a weight to set the tracking weight, and move a bit of fishing line to adjust anti skate. You should get a scale anyway, and you can use it to set the weight when you change cartridges. For anti skate just set up the arm for one cartridge and note the position of the cord, then the other. Then just alternate it beteen these positions. If you have reasonable manual dexterity the swap should take a minute or so once all settings are known. The manual for the 3009 is easy to find online.
One complication with the 3009 is rather than having slotted holes in the headshell, the whole arm base slides back and forth. I would slide it such that it's set up correctly with the ortofon, and then for the second cartridge use a headshell with slotted holes for alignment, so that you don't need to constantly be moving the arm base around.
Now all this said, what do I think is the most elegant solution to your problem, in general?
Well, since the system sounds great with movies, we can eliminate changing anything downstream of the phono preamp. My eyes would target that ortofon. I suggest changing to something like a Nagaoka MP-200 as a safe choice. A Hana high output moving coil is another safe choice, and frankly if you get one you likely will never put the Ortofon back.
In another direction, a relatively cheap cartridge such as a Nagaoka MP-110 would lose a little detail but might give you better balance and ultimately more enjoyable sound.
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A Montreal
Member
I have a Manley Massive Passive in the chain at occasions but it’s a bit heavy handed… it’s a $7000 EQ. I perhaps find something more in range with my system. That EQ belongs in my studio.
A Montreal
Member
That makes a lot of sense. Though you mention slotted holes. I am fixing my arm with an adapter that has three or four prongs (don’t recall the number) and as I imagine it would be easy to exchange the headshells in and out, no?
I was actually just writing to a guy in Italy, who has headphones for that arm. I was asking about having two headshells, one for the Ortofon and one for the Nagaoka MP200, with the appropriate weight to counter their own individual weights and required tracking forces. My tech mentioned that we could use weight to deal with the differences regardless.
I should mention that when I watch films I do often, though not always, EQ in whatever app I’m using to play the film.
ripblade
Addicted Member
Unlikely. Crossover won't be correct for the new tweeter. The Wharfedales you mentioned might be a better fit but I would look at Harbeths first. Something with a soft dome, with or without ferrofluid.
If you're considering a different phono stage, I'd recommend Darlington Labs, MM-5, MM-6 or MP-7, whichever best fits your budget. These are very good at digging out subtle nuances without adding shrillness to the details.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
Each cartridge has to be aligned to the correct geometry. With modern headshells, this is accomplished by sliding the cartridge forwards and back in the headshell. With the SME headshell, the cartridge mounting holes in the headshell are not slotted, and instead the whole base of the arm slides forwards and backwards to allow the geometry to be optimized. I suggest getting the second headshell with the slots, so that the tonearm itself doesn't need to be adjusted for each cartridge.
I truly believe though that once you get the new cartridge set up, you will find all music sounds better. Just becayse exaggerated high end is more tolerable on some records than others doesn't mean it will ever actually be better than a more neutral balance. And Ortofon 2M series cartridges have a reputation for exactly this issue.
P.S. I love the lively and detailed sound aluminum domes can make.
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A Montreal
Member
My original headshell is in bad shape so I bought a new one from Silente in Italy. It is slotted so we are good on that front. I could buy another one from him to be able to compare the two cartridges (depending on what I try next). And if I choose to sell the Ortofon, I could always get an other option one day seeing as I would still have a second headshell.
Were you one of those who suggested the Nagaoka MP200 as a viable option based on what I’ve been describing?
EDIT: yes, I see that you were. Thanks.
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