Need Help w/ Ear Fatigue (JBL L3 / L5 / 035ti)

[RGA]

Some of the replies indicate you are buying speakers for the studio - generally what sounds good in the studio isn't what necessarily sounds good in the home for pleasure listening. Crossover speaker brands like PMC and ATC - I prefer the latter - work in both venues. ATC is one of the current top brands used in recording studios today - not JBL.

So perhaps looking for a second hand ATC might be more up your ally - they can be VERY expensive new $1800 or so and out over $20,000 for top models - but come in passive and active set-ups.

But I would not get too caught up in studio speakers versus home speakers - it is often far less about the speakers and simply what the manufacturer has decided to "target" - my speakers have been designed for homes for decades but some studios have liked them so much they are now using them in their mastering and recording set-ups. Trying to fix a bright speaker or a speaker that is just bothering you can be fixed depending what the issue is - but there is only so much you can do with positioning, room treatments and EQ. Generally I prefer speakers that can sound "good" with no treatments, little to no effort on eq, and across several room varieties. Cross check with a good set of headphones and when the speakers beat a good set of $600 or so headphones then you're really onto something.

 

[jazzmans]

I too would suggest you listen to more speakers. Many years (decades) of listening have shown me that I cannot bear klipsch, nor, unfortunately JBL speakers for any kind of extended listening, my ears quickly grow tired and I find I'm turning the volume down until they are below the threshold of hearing.

It's going to sound cliche' (since I almost always suggest this) but I'd suggest finding vintage infinity that are Emit and/or Emim equipped and give them a listen. Do NOT (IMO) bother with any Infinity speaker called Studio Monitor... unfortunately those are infinity's crappiest speakers.

I've also had very good luck with M&K speakers over the years. I do not use tone controls.

The other thought is Magnepan. They are the most accurate of all modern speakers within a reasonable price range, although they are not small and require lots of good power.

The suggestion that you seek out AK'rs near you is a good one.
Shelly's stereo in Woodland hills iirc, was always a great resource for me back when I lived in the valley.

 

[jblnut]

As a long time JBL guy here, I am going to ask you to shine a light upstream of the speakers. Perhaps you need to listen to a different amp/preamp combination. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you can get driven out of the room by the 035Ti by certain amp or amp/preamp combos.

Stick around here and do some research. You'll find out what people are using and what may be a better match for your speakers. For what it's worth, the L3 were my least favorite model in that line (I owned a pair that I passed on to my nephew) and the reasons have been explained above regarding the xover frequency. You can spend a lot of time and energy moving sideways in this hobby and (imho) messing around with the L3's trying to get them to be something they are not, is not a good use of time.

jblnut

 

[toddalin]

You are totally right Beatnik! However today I got to the bottom of this problem in a very scientific way. It did not make sense to me that I could not deal with such a sought after tweeter given my level of enjoyment of audio etc.

I went to my audiologist and had a test in the normal human hearing range and a test performed above that range. It turns out I can hear up to 16khz with no decibel drop and past 19khz. This means that I am incredibly sensitive to high end reproduction and I legitimately may not be able to listen to JBL's without a crossover component swap to alter the range that the tweeter starts to curve off.

It was suggested to me that I use exposure training to slowly build up my sensitivity level. I may try this as it was recommended by my doctor and there is research on this method.

Im also now the guy who is going to **** a lot of speakers up trying to find MY sound. SORRY PURISTS!

So, maybe you can use "mechanical means" to achieve your end goal. You may try something like placing an extra piece of cloth/gauze material (or such) in front of the tweeter along the back of the grill cloth, or even a "partial baffle" placed in front of the tweeters on stand-offs.

I do this for my Heils, (diffraction baffle) and it totally flattens out the upward trending slope of the driver.

 

[BMWCCA]

I wasn't kidding with the piece of toilet paper suggestion. Or paper towel, or piece of cloth. Whatever it takes. Think of it as a recyclable lens.

 

[NLT]

As a long time JBL guy here, I am going to ask you to shine a light upstream of the speakers. Perhaps you need to listen to a different amp/preamp combination. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you can get driven out of the room by the 035Ti by certain amp or amp/preamp combos.

Stick around here and do some research. You'll find out what people are using and what may be a better match for your speakers. For what it's worth, the L3 were my least favorite model in that line (I owned a pair that I passed on to my nephew) and the reasons have been explained above regarding the xover frequency. You can spend a lot of time and energy moving sideways in this hobby and (imho) messing around with the L3's trying to get them to be something they are not, is not a good use of time.

jblnut

This is great!

I have been doing a lot more listening to a lot more speakers. Some good, some bad. I am trying a set of L5's this weekend and I really hope that I like what I hear. The gentleman I am meeting to try these suggested that my L3's might have some distortion across the board. Possible! After this weekend I will have the L5's and will hopefully be able to make a call about JBL or at least the 35TI.

 

[NLT]

So, maybe you can use "mechanical means" to achieve your end goal. You may try something like placing an extra piece of cloth/gauze material (or such) in front of the tweeter along the back of the grill cloth, or even a "partial baffle" placed in front of the tweeters on stand-offs.

While I considered this, this is not really what I'm looking for. I am really looking to find a transparent speaker that allows me to listen to detail for an extended period of time at about 70db. This shouldn't be difficult but it is. I also know that there are lots of powered monitors that could get the job done for me, but thats not really fun at all .

 

[NLT]

I too would suggest you listen to more speakers. Many years (decades) of listening have shown me that I cannot bear klipsch, nor, unfortunately JBL speakers for any kind of extended listening, my ears quickly grow tired and I find I'm turning the volume down until they are below the threshold of hearing.

It's going to sound cliche' (since I almost always suggest this) but I'd suggest finding vintage infinity that are Emit and/or Emim equipped and give them a listen. Do NOT (IMO) bother with any Infinity speaker called Studio Monitor... unfortunately those are infinity's crappiest speakers.

I've also had very good luck with M&K speakers over the years. I do not use tone controls.

The other thought is Magnepan. They are the most accurate of all modern speakers within a reasonable price range, although they are not small and require lots of good power.

The suggestion that you seek out AK'rs near you is a good one.
Shelly's stereo in Woodland hills iirc, was always a great resource for me back when I lived in the valley.

I will be in Vegas this weekend. Any chance you are around?

 

[loudnoises]

Gonna be that guy, hope I didn't miss something, but...

You've had multiple peeps ask about room treatments. If you've not treated your space adequately, you're putting the cart before the horse. Trying to use studio monitors without giving them the right environment is asking for listening fatigue. I get why you don't want tone controls, I don't use them much either, but that generally means you need to address the other variables more precisely in your listening environment.

Have you had anyone else report the same fatigue from your system?

 

[sqlsavior]

I would like to mix and master on a professional level, this means tissue paper is not valid for me.

If I sold you two squares for ten thousand dollars, you could reply to any naysayer: "That's a five-thousand-dollar piece of TP, I'll have you know!"

It was suggested to me that I use exposure training to slowly build up my sensitivity level. I may try this as it was recommended by my doctor and there is research on this method.

This is how we got used to air pollution, sitting all day, and seven billion other a--holes. Not recommended.

Shelly's stereo in Woodland hills iirc, was always a great resource for me back when I lived in the valley.

Shelley's Stereo is NOT an honest establishment. Period.

 

[NLT]

Gonna be that guy, hope I didn't miss something, but...

You've had multiple peeps ask about room treatments. If you've not treated your space adequately, you're putting the cart before the horse. Trying to use studio monitors without giving them the right environment is asking for listening fatigue. I get why you don't want tone controls, I don't use them much either, but that generally means you need to address the other variables more precisely in your listening environment.

Have you had anyone else report the same fatigue from your system?

My room treatment is not perfect but is adequate as I have been mixing in here with other speakers. At first I associated my ear fatigue with the titanium tweeter, but then realized my AR speakers all have them as well.

There are tons of forums about ear fatigue associated with JBL and Klipsch but I was looking for experience from members here. The problem I'm experiencing is not one of sound quality, field, depth, or anything like that associated with room treatment. I understand the need for room treatment and its effect on quality.

The problem I'm having is more a direct relationship with my ear and the tweeter and is not volume related and occurs if I am anywhere in the 180* field.

I am fully willing to accept that due to my particular hearing I can't listen to JBL's or need to step into a different speaker like the 43's with L-pads. I just wanted to exhaust my options first. I just wanted to enjoy sound again

 

[NLT]

I also have a set of L5's to try out now.

 

[elitopus]

This is how we got used to air pollution, sitting all day, and seven billion other a--holes. Not recommended.

+1

 

[NLT]

Hey Everyone! I'm back with some interesting news, a few pictures, and a lot of opinions! ( I know there are lots of people who will disagree with me, I really do listen to all your opinions)

I am testing using 4 songs:
- John Williams (Ahch-To Island)
- Gladys Knight (License to kill)
- The Contortionist (Language 1)
- In Flames (Swim) ***Im using this song specifically because it is over compressed and very hissy and one of my favorite CD's of all time.

1. My hearing is absolutely perfect, as confirmed by 2 ENT's
2. I have a Eustachian tube disorder and that is currently ****ing me up and definitely effects my perceived levels of hearing
3. The JBL 035TI is like THE RING from TLOTR. Its power is invisible, you want more until your ears bleed and it kills you slowly from the inside.
4. JBL 'clarity' is definitely unsurpassed in the class of speakers I am auditioning, but I don't think that translates to better.

While testing the JBL's I found that when the 035TI tried to reach lower (1khz on the L3), it produced even worse ear fatigue than the tweeters on the L5s. This makes sense to me. Overall I find the JBLs to be initially stunning but artificially bright and still fatiguing after 15 minutes. I don't know if this is true across the entire JBL line but I find this to not be the case in my JBL D38's. Which btw, laugh if you want, sound absolutely INSANE given that they have a shitty 1st order "crossovers" in them. I bought 3 pairs for $30 at auction to do some upgrading and reworking with.

I have purchased a pair of 704g woofers that I am going to use in an experiment where I rebuild the L3 into a 3 way speaker and re-do the crossovers. I am going to start the tweeter 500k higher and actually cut off some of the top end and see what this does. Do not worry JBL people, I will keep all the original stuff in-tact.

Conclusion... The JBL L series hits you in the face and is unapologetic as a speaker, the opposite of the mid-warm and soft touch of my AR's. Im still very 'new' but I kinda have an idea of what I'm doing here and need to probably try some different amps but I'm pretty sure the JBL's don't have a permanent home with me (which hurts).

As always thanks for your comments!

IMG_8313

• NLT
• May 29, 2020

IMG_8324

• NLT
• May 29, 2020

 

[foobarz]

Check all of your interconnection cables, speaker wire, and end connectors for oxidation. Try cleaning it all with deoxit or whatever works to get the metal shiny/clean again. Reconnect everything clean, and listen again. All tone and level controls should be defeated as much as possible in case they are noisy. It is possible that then the sound will be smoother.

 

[BMWCCA]

I am testing using 4 songs:
- In Flames (Swim) ***Im using this song specifically because it is over compressed and very hissy and one of my favorite CD's of all time.
(snip)
1. My hearing is absolutely perfect, as confirmed by 2 ENT's
2. I have a Eustachian tube disorder and that is currently ****ing me up and definitely effects my perceived levels of hearing
3. The JBL 035TI is like THE RING from TLOTR. Its power is invisible, you want more until your ears bleed and it kills you slowly from the inside.

Thanks for your follow-up.

Not a criticism but I'm a bit confused by the conflicting statements above taken from your post. You're using an audio source/CD you know to be defective in two stated ways to critique the speakers. By your own admission your hearing is compromised and your malady, according to Google, does affect your hearing and could cause you to overcompensate for the muffled sound you're hearing by increasing volume. One can always find a lesser speaker more "smooth" and less irritating than another simply because the lesser speaker won't show the irritating parts of the recording. Many of us have noticed in upgrading our speakers that brilliant recordings sound better, and worse recordings often become unlistenable.

In my own experience, I listen to L5s in my TV room almost every day and often for several hours at a time with no complaints of ear fatigue from me or my wife who has even more acute hearing. That's just my experience. Recordings that have irritating upper ranges on my more modern systems always sound "softer" and more listenable on my older JBLs with the 044. Contrary to what has been written here and elsewhere, the 044 in my L112 and L96 is not a metal dome but a linen-like dome sprayed with an aluminum looking paint. JBL calls it a phenolic material coated with aluminum in a "vapor deposition process" many have accepted as a form of spray paint. Regardless, it produces a softer sound than any later titanium tweeters. Makes a big difference on marginal recordings with flaws in the upper ranges of our hearing.

Glad you're having fun!

 

[loudnoises]

I've been in a similar situation.

Polk put out some simple dome tweeters, db1000 iirc. I loved the sound. Crisp, detailed, nuanced, massively fatiguing. I tried every placement, eq trick, crossover point, they just hurt by the time I got to work. It sucked, but they had to go. It took a while but eventually I replaced them with some vifa xt25 ring radiators and regretted the time I wasted trying to get the polks to work for me.

Much appreciate the update as well, and the detail you're going thru. I hope you find resolution soon.

 

[MadcapLaughs]

Hey my two cents on this is that amps and speakers alike can be fatiguing in their own way, such as my Sansui au 9500 combined with my Altec speakers.an it sounded good but could I make it through an Alice In Chains album without my ears ringing? Nope. So I knew I had to break the chain up immediately, I ended up trading the Altec (890c boleros) for a pair of ADS L980s, and my god I can listen to anything for hours, it’s honestly about good synergy. On a side note the my Wharfedale w90s and sherwood tube amp sound like absolute silk.

I say If your system fatigues you while listening to “Raw Power” by Iggy and the Stooges then it’s not the right system, even if you aren’t a headbanger, it’s just a statement on the versatility of your components. The ultimate danger is when your system forces you to change your music listening habits out of necessity

 

[MJB1959]

Your brand loyalty could be your biggest hurdle, especially with regard to your ear sensitivity issues.
JBL is an American standard, great build quality and lasting value. I have had many sets, still have some.
Yet I favor other brands for their warmth and non-fatiguing sound quality. So give other brands a try. You might be surprised.

 

[NLT]

Thanks for your follow-up.

Not a criticism but I'm a bit confused by the conflicting statements above taken from your post. You're using an audio source/CD you know to be defective in two stated ways to critique the speakers. By your own admission your hearing is compromised and your malady, according to Google, does affect your hearing and could cause you to overcompensate for the muffled sound you're hearing by increasing volume. One can always find a lesser speaker more "smooth" and less irritating than another simply because the lesser speaker won't show the irritating parts of the recording. Many of us have noticed in upgrading our speakers that brilliant recordings sound better, and worse recordings often become unlistenable.

Glad you're having fun!

Hi thanks for commenting on this. To clear it up I have a very high quality DAC in play here and the source is not defective. It's how the album sounds. If you want to get into the semantics about a record being flawed because of the way it sounds then we can eliminate about EVERY BAND EVER from our list of possible test songs. Seriously, it's not flawed, its metal from 1999 produced by a dude who is known as the best producer in Scandinavian metal in the last 20 years.

I honestly find your logic very flawed here. If I have been listening to this record my entire life, on every system I have ever owned or had use of, and love it for its tonal qualities even though it lacks in some areas. It's not the record that is flawed if my ears hurt. It is the speaker.