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New Custom PhonoCartridges

I want a new Stanton 681eee. That would be work doing!
I agree 1000%.

I own several cart bodies with original styluses in very good to excellent condition. 2 needed styluses. I would also like to see Pickering as well, basically a Stanton in a new suit.

Another cart would be a decent MC that performed well in the majority of TT from the 60s thru the 80s without having to swap an arm or do major work in order to use it.

Of course the price point/performance of it will prove the niche market you speak of. Can such device be made and sold under say $200.00 or a bit more? YES it can and quanty sales will result. Charge more and you are see simply another custom cart maker. You will make some sales but you would make a strong ongoing market with the above MM,MI, and a MC for the price mentioned and below you will succeed, if not maybe but not as well as the former plan.

Just my opinion.

Hermit
 
That makes sense, but why does the stone make the cantilever jump so much? My Panasonic hyperelliptical and AT Shibatas are all much louder than the conicals regarding surface noise. The ellipticals are in between.


From IAR 1980, in discussing the diamond cantilever Dynavector cartridge "speed"

When we aurally evaluate electronics , a sure sign
of truly high speed is that quick transients (musical or
record ticks ) are over with so fast that they scarcely
have time to register on the ear/brain , and so they
actually sound diminished in loudness and impact . If
our ear/brain has time to first notice that there is a
transient , then turn its attention to the transient , and
then focus on what the transient sounds like — that' s
a sure sign that the device(s ) in the audio chain is too
slow . It is too slow even if it is overly bright , and
sizzles at you with excess 'transient information' , or
rings and so hits you over the head with the impact ' of
each overhanging 'transient '

The stone isn't making the cantilever "overhang" or "overshoot" that's the fault within the cantilever, suspension, etc. It can be in the cart body itself "echoing" as you kinda found out with a simple device that rapidly damps that. To address other responses in the thread about arms, as Pio pointed out it may be bearing chatter, tube "echo"
Another issue can be due to SRA that can make the type of diamond cut more aggressive leading to more surface noise. Think of chalk on a chalkboard. Held at a certain angle makes it squeal. A conical is a lot less forgiving on SRA since its contact patch is essentially a round area of approx .7mill . { o } the angle of attack doesn't change the area of attack that a line contact type stone will....the line contact can be { / } { l } { \ } in relation the the wall.

 
I think it's fair to say that any stylus with a finer scanning radius and broader bearing radius is bound to bump into more detritus and defects than a simple conical, but the degree of audibility of the noise seems to be dependent on the damping in the system as a whole, including the vinyl itself. If the needle talk is loud, the noise is too.
 
I think it's fair to say that any stylus with a finer scanning radius and broader bearing radius is bound to bump into more detritus and defects than a simple conical, but the degree of audibility of the noise seems to be dependent on the damping in the system as a whole, including the vinyl itself. If the needle talk is loud, the noise is too.
The whole playback system matters. One unified approach by a systems oriented designer was the original Infinity turntable system by Bruce Thigpen, later as Mapleknoll. Another was by John Bicht at Versa Dynamics.
 
Please consider:

(1) The smaller the tip’s scanning radius the greater excitation to the cantilever by small-scale groove wall aberrations – whether desired HF signal content or surface imperfections. A groove “tick” or “pop” is an impulse imperfection which has infinite high frequency content. A ball point tip would be expected to be less responsive to impulsive groove roughness since it would geometrically average it out. A line-contact tip is claimed to geometrically average response to groove wall roughness, at least along the height of the groove wall -- assuming SRA is correct.

(2) Also, tips of different geometries don’t necessarily have identical tip mass. Tip mass can resonate with vinyl compliance to affect FR.

(3) The length of a practical cantilever is of the same order as the wavelength of sound transmission. Hence it has multiple resonance modes which can be excited by tip motion at the cantilever’s front. These modes depend on cantilever construction and material. Shorter and stiffer => greater HF response (including ultrasonics).

(4) The cartridge generating element (magnet or coil) at the cantilever’s rear produces the electrical signal. We would like the rear end generator to follow the front tip. But this is not so true at high frequencies. I like to think of the cantilever as a mechanical analog of an electrical transmission line: It can have losses and standing waves.

(5) How much of the groove tick’s impulse spectrum enters the preamplifier depends on electrical filtering of the pickup’s output. Relatively high for a MI/MM pickup with its high source impedance and cable capacitance, but typically little filtering for a MC. Note that the preamp input circuitry must be able to accommodate the MC’s HF impulse energy (perhaps ultrasonic) without overload. Not always the case.(Same for a LZ MI/MM.)

Thus, a valid comparison of various tip geometries requires EVERY other variable to be constant. This applies to effects of tip geometry on audible surface noise, tracing distortion, frequency response, etc.

We haven’t heard from the original poster OldADC for a while. Eric, am I making things excessively complicated?
 
Greetings all. Eric has been off making his normal living. Been traveling quite a bit. Also been working away at a design while on some long damn airplane flights. I have been reading all these posts and find folks perspectives on design issues quite interesting. Some I consider the same old debates that have been around now for over 40 yrs that have no more substantiation than they did long ago. Some are well considered and worthy of investigating whether modern methods can accommodate effective change in cartridge design to take best advantage in advances in electronics. Should a cartridge maintain a specific range of source resistance and inductance that is smaller than the good ol days given the state of phono preamps and/or step-up transformers? Interesting question. As for some assertions that MC are necessary better than MM or MI, someone please show me where in Maxwell's equations it makes any difference which part moves. All electromagnetic physics cares about is relative motion.

I do plan on sharing some things in the near future but it will take a bit more time than I have post travel and pre-Christmas. More latter.....
 
Some quiet musings for a Sunday afternoon. Surely not exhaustive, but perhaps indicative of some issues and the progress of time. I will use 1980 as an excellent example, mostly because that was the time frame during which I was very actively doing design work on these little devices. There were no personal computers, no desktop computers, in fact, computers were still big ol IBM machines and punch cards were finally fading out in favor of keyboards and saved code. Can you remember that? Probably most of you can't! Stone tablets, dudes, stone tablets. There were no Finite Element Analysis or Finite Difference software programs for truly physics based analysis. No 3-D design software, no 3-D printers, none of these tools. Now, with SolidWorks and its ilk for physical design and FEA/FDA for stress, electromagnetics, etc, there is an ability to predict design performance, visualize field lines for the magnetics, all kinds of stuff that just wasn't available.

Best example I can think of, you are all probably pretty familiar with the magnetic yoke design for the vast majority of moving coil cartridges. I am referring to the design where the front magnetic yoke has a hole through it where the cantilever reaches out of the assembly and down toward the record surface. The main magnet is at the top of the front yoke and bridges to the back yoke which also serves as the mechanical basis against which the stylus/coil/damper block assembly (and there are at least a dozen variants of this assembly between coil configurations and damping blocks) is mounted typically with a tie wire toward the rear. Take this assembly and model it in a FEA electromagnetics program to look at the magnetic field through the gap region between the front and rear yokes and particularly the transverse spatial uniformity of the magnetic field in the region of the moving coils. It is truly appalling just how non-uniform and non-linear the magnetic flux is in this region. Thus, given that the amplitude variations in the recorded signal are expressed in the vinyl as velocity dependent, the driven motion of the generator end of the stylus assembly can't possibly yield the kind of accuracy of voltage vs. driven signal that we would all hope for. Just way too much craziness in the magnetic circuit parameters. MM/MI designs (particularly of that era) don't fare much better under modern analytic tools. Even mine!! Ha!

Try it sometime, it's actually amazing to me that the devices have all worked as well as they have. We can and should do better with modern analytical tools to drive our designs. Try looking up the wiki on computational electromagnetics. Good examples of software are OPERA FEA and QuickField. Generally takes a couple of months of screwing around with an FEA package to be able to generate good front end meshes with the right element densities in the critical regions and then be able to read the results leading to meaningful design change. But we really should be able to put these tools to really good use!!

Cheers, thoughts on diamond shapes and cantilevers to follow in a bit. Hope everyone is warming up for a good holidays.

Eric
 
Eric.... if you want to continue your work with MM/MI design please have a look at the old ADC TRX-3 if you can even find one......this is THE only cartridge that can compete with our beloved MC's and in some ways surpass it ...I picked up this cartridge and did some R and R including re- tipping it sounds fantastic and tracks extremely well below 1gm ...


Lawrence
 
Note that the preamp input circuitry must be able to accommodate the MC’s HF impulse energy (perhaps ultrasonic) without overload.

This has been brought up a couple of times that I have noticed, but in my estimation is still overlooked
by many as a reason why we often get the comment "I hear so much more cracks and pops with
my new to me cart" I think profile contact area is a factor but not exclusively.
 
Eric.... if you want to continue your work with MM/MI design please have a look at the old ADC TRX-3 if you can even find one......this is THE only cartridge that can compete with our beloved MC's and in some ways surpass it ...I picked up this cartridge and did some R and R including re- tipping it sounds fantastic and tracks extremely well below 1gm ...


Lawrence
I believe these were built after I had left the company. Built under contract with a Japanese supplier, the bodies are a bit different but the Omni-Pivot suspension looks to be the same. Do you have any direct comparison to say an XLM, ZLM, or Astrion? I would expect them to be extremely similar in character.
 
Is the TRX-3 a "tripole" design-- similar to the Acutex M3## models built by Azden/Piezo-- like the TRX-1 and -2?
 
That is a very interesting read. I have long preferred the sound of conical styli for a number of reasons--I believe that they are much quieter than other stylus types, generally, and can track just as well and they seem to be "blacker," perhaps because of reasons pointed out in the paper. Maybe they twist less and so sound less confused.

There are some more advanced profiles that I have heard that are as quiet, though--the one that comes to mind is the Stanton or Pickering Stereohedron, but none have sounded as "black." There is a sense of space or rich silence between the notes or something that I get with conical or spherical styli that I simply don't hear with other shapes. It's almost as if there is an inaudible "buzz" with ellipticals and other shapes that you don't really hear, but you notice it because what you do hear is somehow less focused even if in other ways the more complex shapes give more detail or higher end frequency response (in some cases). The best comparison I can think of is a visual parallel--a conical sounds like what the world looks like after a rain--so clear. Rain knocks pollen and dust and all kinds of other stuff out of the atmosphere. You didn't really see it, and it's presence isn't like fog, but once it's gone you notice colors that are richer, depth perception is easier, and contrast is so much higher. Perhaps without the twisting what one actually hears with a conical is greater contrast.

I have Shibatas and hyperellipticals and they all seem to be overly sensitive to surface noise compared to Stereohedron. Microlines and line contacts, generally, seem to pick up imperfections or damage in the grooves and place the ugly sounds they have retrieved on the bridge of your nose. The cost of the luminous sound that they do deliver can be rather high as part of the bargain. Often, the improvement seems to be gained only through deal with the devil.

"It results in a sound that is particularly offensive to women." Interesting observation.

Women are very well known to be sensitive to distorted high frequencies. And what Fulton has to say about the subject of distortion and record wear correlates to my experience in broadcast engineering related to LP and 45 RPM disc reproduction, tracing distortion, and record wear. Often the best conical designs provide the least tracing distortion, and the least record wear.
 
Not to go OT but what would you offer as representative of the best conical designs? I'd like to hear some of these if I could. Your recommendations are always dead on.

Denon's DL 103. Stanton's 681A (flatter response than the EEE Stereohedrons), Shure's M35x to name some good ones.

The Ortofon OM Pro is another one that well liked. If you already have an OM body you can make one by adding a Pro stylus. I've also heard good things about the Technics EPC series but it's hard to find original stylus for these.
 
Denon's DL 103. Stanton's 681A (flatter response than the EEE Stereohedrons), Shure's M35x to name some good ones.

Indeed the Denon 103 is a most charming device. I have a 103D that I am particularly fond off. Perhaps the sweetest strings on full orchestral recordings.
 
The '103 was the only ballpoint I've heard that I could live with, if I had to, on regular stereo LPs. Otherwise, they leave too much unplayed in the groove. For old mono LPs and Dynagroove, OK.
 
Pio's tagline "Different" is easy, "Better" not so much is spot on! I am presently constructing some test pieces to see if a concept is "better" or merely "different". We have all lived with elastomeric damping for styli in the suspensions. Temperature sensitivity of high loss tangent materials has been an issue in the past and continues to be so. Damping is almost universally applied very physically adjacent to the center of rotation (and center of percussion if they are appropriately co-located). I am attempting to evaluate whether a magnetic field approach to stylus motion damping which is not constrained by Earnshaw's Theorem for stability criteria for 1/r2 fields provides a benefit.
 
Interesting, Eric. Constructions where the moving magnetic armature is encased within an electrically conductive sleeve may derive damping via eddy currents in the sleeve. The eddy currents generate a magnetic field opposing armature motion. Eddy current damping avoids the temperature and frequency dependencies of elastomers. Common examples would be Shure and Stanton styli. I believe Peter Pritchard attempted this to a lesser degree by surrounding one armature end with a conductive ring ("controlled electrodynamic damping"). All the above designs did, however, include an elastomeric bearing element.
 
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