New ESS Heil Speakers!!
- Thread starter automojo
- Start date
As far as I know you can't get the non-screened ones anymore anyway, so enjoy what you have.
IBJamon
OLD OE stock comes up for sale occasionally on Ebay from time to time-but the prices for these usually are higher.
Last edited:
Recently was asked if I thought the 1040sf would work well in one of the non-ported AMT3 enclosures.
Looking at the EPB for this woofer it's around 70.8, which means it will work better in a ported enclosure-but it close to the 'crossover area'-, and a Xmax of 9.1 for the 1040sf-it might just work fine-if not you could always add a port.
The Dayton Classic woofer (8 ohm) has a EPB of 58 which is a bit closer, but it's not a high power handler- it's a realitively inexpensive woofer @$27 though.
The dynamics and detail of the 1040SF are however truely stunning IMHO, along the AMT3 supporting cast.
Personally I would try the 1040Sf-if it's not working the best- I would add the port-and get ready to settle into audio nirvana
!
Once those woofers break in, you will probably have to, as I did, set the AMT setting to bright to keep up with the woofers.
Looking at the EPB for this woofer it's around 70.8, which means it will work better in a ported enclosure-but it close to the 'crossover area'-, and a Xmax of 9.1 for the 1040sf-it might just work fine-if not you could always add a port.
The Dayton Classic woofer (8 ohm) has a EPB of 58 which is a bit closer, but it's not a high power handler- it's a realitively inexpensive woofer @$27 though.
The dynamics and detail of the 1040SF are however truely stunning IMHO, along the AMT3 supporting cast.
Personally I would try the 1040Sf-if it's not working the best- I would add the port-and get ready to settle into audio nirvana
!Once those woofers break in, you will probably have to, as I did, set the AMT setting to bright to keep up with the woofers.
The ESS Great Heil???
Older thread, but I see there are some new ads for a a new line of ESS Labs AMT-1 decedents. My question to all of you - have you ever seen ANY real documentation on the ESS designed Heil drivers? Well, I found actual frequency response plots, and THD figures, and they are.........atrocious! A German magazine did a fairly good test of these units, and while the Germans take pride in a German design, which is where these were being made for a number of years, the frequency response doesn't lie. It shows a rising frequency response with a large peak of some 8 db at around 8KHz., then a clear drop off, being down around 6 db at 20KHZ. Does this seem HI-FI to any of you? is it impressive? you betcha'. Is it "accurate". nodda. It does make for etched details(hardly surprising with that peak), but it is harsh and grating for extended critical listening. The THD isn't good either and that wasn't from being crossed in too low, that was in the true treble region. Boy, I wish someone could get a set of these to "Zaph" for a comprehensive testing here in the States. . i do recall an old Audio magazine review where that very fact was mentioned, but memory doesn't serve when that was published. The interesting thing is that high harmonic distortion also lends itself to an erroneous perception of detail. Don't believe it, that's fine. I just say, demand accurate specs. before plopping down the kind of money they are asking. If Vifa can provide them; if Hicuphon can provide them(small tweeter company), if even Pioneer can provide them, then why can't ESS? Parts Express can't even get specs, and frequency graphs for these darn things. Is someone is hiding something!
I'd say, "you betcha'.
Older thread, but I see there are some new ads for a a new line of ESS Labs AMT-1 decedents. My question to all of you - have you ever seen ANY real documentation on the ESS designed Heil drivers? Well, I found actual frequency response plots, and THD figures, and they are.........atrocious! A German magazine did a fairly good test of these units, and while the Germans take pride in a German design, which is where these were being made for a number of years, the frequency response doesn't lie. It shows a rising frequency response with a large peak of some 8 db at around 8KHz., then a clear drop off, being down around 6 db at 20KHZ. Does this seem HI-FI to any of you? is it impressive? you betcha'. Is it "accurate". nodda. It does make for etched details(hardly surprising with that peak), but it is harsh and grating for extended critical listening. The THD isn't good either and that wasn't from being crossed in too low, that was in the true treble region. Boy, I wish someone could get a set of these to "Zaph" for a comprehensive testing here in the States. . i do recall an old Audio magazine review where that very fact was mentioned, but memory doesn't serve when that was published. The interesting thing is that high harmonic distortion also lends itself to an erroneous perception of detail. Don't believe it, that's fine. I just say, demand accurate specs. before plopping down the kind of money they are asking. If Vifa can provide them; if Hicuphon can provide them(small tweeter company), if even Pioneer can provide them, then why can't ESS? Parts Express can't even get specs, and frequency graphs for these darn things. Is someone is hiding something!
I'd say, "you betcha'.
I will try to help with what i can. And i will try to answer your questions in the reverse of you asking them.
Is ESS hiding something? Yes they are, but not what you think they are hiding. What they're "disguising" by not releasing any specs and/or graphs is two-fold... a) they are building an inferior diaphragm to the original and b) they are slightly incompetent and comprised of wholly untrained personnel in the facility. They didn't even produce test specs (in the US facility) until early in 2010. This was well over a year after the damn thing was available at the only 3 distributors. And these graphs were plotted using LMS in a poorly constructed sound room that is decades old by yet again, personnel that is wholly untrained. This information is a first hand account by yours truly as i indeed spent ample amounts of time attempting to "train" the current *cough* "president of manufacturing" and found it to be, absolutely futile.
2nd point; i have no recollection of the Heil amt ever being produced in Germany until late 2006 when Herman Hoffman took over (potentially) production of new cabinet builds and newer amt builds in Frankfurt, but all speculation aside it did not get off the ground well and was forced to give up on production and the ESS name was re-licensed in the states again in late 2008. The licensing did not take place in Frankfurt, but the ESS license agreement had expired by that time.
Thirdly... those re-badged "AMT-1" decedents you speak of, oh wow where do i start.
You aren't looking at hi-fi there. A poorly designed and poorly built amt sits atop an ever poorer excuse of a woofer. So far as the website and what's presented as a quality manufactured speaker proudly built in the USA? A farce at best.
I again digress into admission that i personally logged hundreds of man-hours in the facility attempting to assist a company that basically, doesn't care about the end consumer. The pictures you see of the LE cabinets... are pictures of my speakers. Not speakers that i bought, but speakers that i already owned. I offered up my speakers to assist in the show at CES 2010 so lo and behold a photoshopped version of my actual cabinets are what's on the website still to this day. They are the 1C version. He used my boxes because he didn't have the energy and time to produce his very own with over a year to do so.
Drivers. Bad bad news there. In an attempt to school the man with respect to cone materials and coil construction, the only thing he wanted was "bling". While the builds of times passed on the cone material were originally pulp followed by English-imported Bextrene and then polypropylene, he opted to go very cheap. By cheap i mean, we're talking ridiculous proportions. The bass drivers / conical radiators now available either in the cabinets or as re-cones / replacements... are all made by a factory in China that produces low-budget home-theater components and i'm talking white-van stuff here. That's all the Chinese company produces, is home theater low-fi. I've spent time with the factory rep from China (owners son actually) and although he's a nice guy, he's pandering to the whim of "cheap drivers for sale" to ESS LLC at large and they're all biting like it's feeding time.
When i say "all" i mean the manager and the owner. The company comprises of so very few people that, when i would walk into the building i was able to say hello to every employee in the entire company by only saying hello 3 times.
Any more info i can help with i will be around.
:thmbsp:3 new Models- a new AMT, and a 2 way version of the "rock moniter", with a dipole tweeter, and a book shelf as well.
The LD10LR is $3494/pr, and the AMT is $2495/pr.
By the way-I found that blocking off the sides of the AMT (Heil) on my AMT 3's is a huge improvement in imaging and timbre balance-it prevents the midrange frequencies from wrapping around the Heil and cancelling each other out-perhaps that's why they went that direction with the LD10LR.
Was hoping for a 3-way Rock Moniter as well.
Awesome to see they are back making the world's greatest speakers
http://essspeakersusa.com/Products.html
Hey automojo! You appear to be one of the more enthusiastic Heil enthusiasts here at AK and i hate to burst your proverbial bubble but, the offerings they have now are in no way good in comparison to what you currently own.
The LE (limited edition) is a remake of the 1Darlington (amt1D). A copy. A bad one at that. They (he) decided to name it the limited edition because he doesn't want to plead the owner into more money to produce more pairs than, just a few here and there. Henceforth, the 'limited edition'.
The LD10LR is a 90° flip of the late 70's / early 80s version of the Concept CE-1 (constant energy). Pacific Stereo marketed those. Pacific Stereo was singularly licensed to offer them by the same man that still owns ESS today, aka Leo David. Which brings me to the moniker of the 'LD10LR'. Which is when broken down - the LeoDavid10"left-right. The fella running the joint decided to pay homage to the owner (also known as sucking up) by naming the cabinets LD and they utilize the 10" active with the 12" passive just like the CE-1, and they are "turned" 90° to give that signature left-bank and right-bank to their albeit awkward, footprint. Load that cabinet up with some poorly designed (by poorly i mean no R&D whatsoever) Chinese drivers and... voila!
The pricing structure speaks volumes my good man. They should be, awesome at that price point. Not the case.
While i spent a ton of time working out the pricing structure for the LE and LD with them, Leo kept coming back with higher and yet higher pricing. I ended up @ $2200 a pair for the LD and talked the manager into it, but Leo bumped it all the way up to $3400 and change. I wouldn't recommend them at half that price. They don't measure up sonically.
I will be around, looking at these threads from time to time.
Cheers.
ESS Heils, stage 2
Well, after posting i did a little test. i have a set of the AMT-1C's. The kids like them for basement parties..... Anyway, I ran those up stairs and listened for awhile. I found a few discs where they actually sounded GREAT! s it turns out, those are poor recording which benefit from a speaker which acts as a sort of equalizer. To compare, I hooked in a set of venerable Dahlquist DQ-20i's, which have quality european/danish drivers, outside of an Advent woofer, which ain''t bad at all really. The dahlquist are rated =/- 1db from 1000 Hz. to 20,000 Hz.
and are =/- just a few db down into the bass regions. Well, they didn't sound as good on the trashy recordings. Guess that's accuracy for you? I found that by boosting the treble around 8 db, and lowering the midrange while boosting the 60Hz. region, they sounded much much closer, but the dahlquists DQ-20i's were still better, as the little response wriggles you get with the Heils were gone.
You know, 20 years from now people will be still, posting GLOWING reviews for the ESS Heils and hey, if they really like them, that's all good. It's what sounds good to YOU that matters. I just prefer some hard even sometimes unpleasant truth in the little corner of my world I have some control of, my listening room. If it's a crappy recording with no clarity, or definition, so be it.
Well, after posting i did a little test. i have a set of the AMT-1C's. The kids like them for basement parties..... Anyway, I ran those up stairs and listened for awhile. I found a few discs where they actually sounded GREAT! s it turns out, those are poor recording which benefit from a speaker which acts as a sort of equalizer. To compare, I hooked in a set of venerable Dahlquist DQ-20i's, which have quality european/danish drivers, outside of an Advent woofer, which ain''t bad at all really. The dahlquist are rated =/- 1db from 1000 Hz. to 20,000 Hz.
and are =/- just a few db down into the bass regions. Well, they didn't sound as good on the trashy recordings. Guess that's accuracy for you? I found that by boosting the treble around 8 db, and lowering the midrange while boosting the 60Hz. region, they sounded much much closer, but the dahlquists DQ-20i's were still better, as the little response wriggles you get with the Heils were gone.
You know, 20 years from now people will be still, posting GLOWING reviews for the ESS Heils and hey, if they really like them, that's all good. It's what sounds good to YOU that matters. I just prefer some hard even sometimes unpleasant truth in the little corner of my world I have some control of, my listening room. If it's a crappy recording with no clarity, or definition, so be it.
Personally I thought the AMT 1 C was a good sounding speaker-it could benefit from a recap/rewire and reseal for sure.
The best of the lot is the AMT3, which uses a transition driver to mate the Heil to the woofers-which are twin 10" units fast/ light and work very well with the other drivers.
The AMT3's have a very flat frequency response-taking from a 1975 independent review- I have a copy somewhere and will scan it when I find it and post it here. I don't find any sort of "equalization". Your AMT 1 C's probably need a bit of updating to give a true review on what they are capable of.
They alos, like the AMT#, need to be properly set up-they sound good in smaller rooms, but are their best in larger rooms where they can be spread out a bit- the imaging, detail and dynamics is simply amazing IMHO.
Aside from driver match and integration, alot has to do with the crossover in the AMT3, and not trying to take the Heil down so low where it's not at it's best.
To me, if a person is tryin to design a Heil speaker on their own, and using the Heil as a true tweeter, midrange unit (aside from a super tweeter) the AMT3 crossover design provides the best compromise IMHO in dealing properly with the Heil. The PS1220 would also be a option-smaller monopole Heil, and a true midrange.
Speed of the drivers is the key, slow woofers and mids just aren't going to work.
The 1040SF is a good unit, and provides a more in your face voicing for the AMT3's, very detailed and the bass is a chest cruncher for sure, and probably works best in a sealed cabinet version of the AMT3, or by extending the port (2.5" dia) to around 5.75 to 6" inches. They have no problem keeping up with the other drivers.
But after some extensive and exhausting testing, I am finding ESS had it right with the stock Alnico versions (for my ears anyway) light weight-quick, and detailed as well, and a very smooth response-and yes they can hit in the lower 30's hz.
A recap (stock caps are marginal at best) rewire, and sealing of the cabinets and midbass tubes is a must, as they can be very leaky- and it makes a huge difference in cleaning up the midbass response, as well as blocking of each side of the Heil to prevent midrange cancellation.
The AMT3's aren't the best speaker out there by any means- but they are IMHO better than 95% of the speaker I have heard over the past 40 years or so under $5k, when refurbished and set up properly.
You can't expect a almost 40 year older to sound it's best without some work-and that's part of the reason I have posted as much information on these speakers as I come across through personal experience or research-because IMHO they are more than well worth the effort to refurbish/upgrade-as they simply rock!!
Sorry to hear the new ESS speakers aren't up to snuff-very sad they decided to cheap out.
Strange about the new Heil diaphrams-as many think they are better than the old ones. I keep my Heils fused, so it's almost impossible to damage them- they all have 70's diaphrams.
Hell, if I didn't have two 2 1/2 year older twin daughters, wasn't married, and had a bit extra cash-I would buy ESS-steal a couple people from Electrovoice, and make for starters a properly designed modern AMT3- The "AUTO AMT3 Deluxe"-Alnico twin 10" paper cone woofers ( from Eminence) , and a copy of the Alnico Peerless mid driver- in a 2 inch solid cabinet.
Keep the quality high, and the profit margin (after expenses of course) at a realistic 35-37%.
No- I don't need a lecture on starting a speaker company and all the pitfalls- a dream, but I'm happy with my own current business (16+ years so far).
Howver if I won the lotto, and had lot's of excess cash to burn.......:scratch2:
......
Last edited:
westend
Audiopile
Would one of the Fostex or other light cone drivers be fast enough to keep up with the AMT? I had tried to come up with a woofer that would cover 30hz-2500hz or better and keep pace but couldn't find the right canidate so gave up on using the AMT in a two-way. I do know one fella' that has done it but the driver he uses is no longer available.
I haven't given up on the AMT, though, as you know Automojo.
I haven't given up on the AMT, though, as you know Automojo.
The smaller 2-WAY 8" woofer ESS speakers seem to integrate better with Heil than the larger 2-ways.
The 1040Sf is a good canditate for AMT 1 replacement a fast and sensitive woofer, but it won't solve the problem with the Heil being crossed over too low.
From all the ESS speakers I have heard-the PS1220, and AMT3 are clearly the best IMHO those being 3 way (PS1220 had a 12 inch Bextrine woofer, and 12 inch foam slab passive and more of a true midrange (4" paper cone driver with a cloth suspension)as opposed to a transition driver-I used to have a pair- and they had both mids and Heil contols/lpads-and a small monopole Heil). The AMT3 having dual active 10" woofers, transition driver and great heil
I really think the best results using the AMT Heil would be in a 3 way design, using the AMT3 crossover design as a template with the approprite drivers-twin 10 inch woofers, as the dual speakers provide enough bass output (and speed)to keep up with the Heil, better than one large woofer, or woofer passive IMHO.
Perhaps dual 8 inch woofer would work as well-but if you are designing a 3 way with the transition driver- you might as well go with a slightly larger woofer-but I don't thinks it's a big deal either way.
I think those Fostex 8" woofers @ Madisound might work out well in a dual setup-I didn't read the specs too close- but they are fairly sensitive.
I really do think most of the DIY Heil frustration (as opposed to Super Tweeter use)is from not using them in a 3 way transition design letting the Heil and other drivers do what they do best.
I wonder also if some vintage E/V, Altec, or Gauss woofer would be good candidates. Not too familiar with E/V or Altec (yet), but some of the Gauss woofers seemed like ideal candiates- I don't think they made a 10" woofer-but I know they where very sensitive and quick- and perhaps would be a worth while experiment with the appropriate box, crossover, etc
Last edited:
Early AMT3 Woofer Update
I came across some photo's and information on some older speakers of similiar vintage- and ran across a set of Alnico 10 inch woofers that have similiar numbering, and almost identical frame/basket/magnetic motor construction (except for the plating) as my early AMT3 4 ohm woofers.
Apparently these were made by CTS (aka Phenolic Ring Tweeter) in Chicago-so this must have been the supplier for there woofers at this time-my later woofers (8 ohms) are different with a more shallow basket-but they also may be a more up to date CTS design.
Interesting-I assumed they where probably Eminece- but I did wonder when I got my second pair, and those 4 ohm woofers look so unusual.
I came across some photo's and information on some older speakers of similiar vintage- and ran across a set of Alnico 10 inch woofers that have similiar numbering, and almost identical frame/basket/magnetic motor construction (except for the plating) as my early AMT3 4 ohm woofers.
Apparently these were made by CTS (aka Phenolic Ring Tweeter) in Chicago-so this must have been the supplier for there woofers at this time-my later woofers (8 ohms) are different with a more shallow basket-but they also may be a more up to date CTS design.
Interesting-I assumed they where probably Eminece- but I did wonder when I got my second pair, and those 4 ohm woofers look so unusual.
Last edited:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215057&d=1276382127
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215055&d=1276381772
The first 2 pictures are pictures of the 4 ohm CTS woofers. These are the woofers I want to recone with 8 ohm voice coils. The cones are prefect-in fact I suspect they may have already been reconed in the not to distant past and the numbers on the rear of the cones 7713570-as I recall look very new, as well as the spider covers/adhesive.
I traded a set of Klipsch KG 5.5's for these at Midwest speaker in Roseville, MN.
I suspect he reconed them-but he mentioned them being refoamed. The meger attempt at sealing the drivers (putty looked very new) was also a clue to recent work.
Regardless-they won't work with the new 8 ohm crossover. I suppose I could wire the woofers in series, instead of parallel-but the crossover (either 4 or 8 ohm) isn't designed for the woofers being wired that way.
The older 4 ohm crossover that was present with these woofers used a total of 8-4 ohm resistors in the woofer circuit (installed between 2 inductors)-which didn't seem ideal.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215137&d=1276407528
I'm not sure if they were padding the woofer, or simply making the the load more resistive-or perhaps both. When measured-it brought the dc resistence up to about 3.6 ohms.
But it also seems to be a waste of power in heating up the resistors.
The later 3 coil 8ohm woofer crossover design seems to be the best compromise.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=168102&d=1252244885
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=266480&d=1301719120 (My new 8ohm copy)-not completely wired yet-(yellow for heil-blue for mid-green for woofer circuits)). It's not the prettiest-but I want the componets to stay put-and probably over did the adhesive-but better than dangeling caps or coils!
I know I will lose a slight amount of sensitivety- but hope fully get it back with the new higher efficiency crossover.
This last picture is of the 8ohm woofers-later design.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162955&d=1249345770
The original owner had these refoamed fairly recently, and did a horrible job of sealing-putty and silicone.
He also didn't was a bit rought with the woofer removal-as you can see a few chunks of the speaker mounting surface.
60 minute expoxy wroks well (do the front and the back) to stabilize and strengthen these surfaces. Hurricane nut and speaker gasket tape is also a must to prevent any further damage.
My second pair woofer sealing surfaces are darn near perfect-so care is needed. Judicious use of a heat gun, or hair dryer helps with the removal.
As you can see- both feature Alnico drivers-the CTS have a deeper basket and larger diameter voice coil, and larger magnet.
Both pairs of these speakers feature ported enclosures-the 4 ohm version uses a slighty shorter port- and also uses the Peerless Alnico midrange, which features a rubber surround, and vented dustcap.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215136&d=1276407528
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213937&d=1275778257
My later AMT3's(8ohm woofers) have a ceramic magnet mid-paper cone with foam surround
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162952&d=1249345770
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162953&d=1249345770
Both type of mids are 8 ohms.
All 4 Heils are 4 ohm.
Anyway this is what I am looking at with by 2nd AMT3 rebuild-keeping the original 4 ohm woofers 4 ohms-or redoing the old crossover with it's 8 woofer circuit resistors. The rest is gravy.......!
And after looking at this post- this seems a convenient single post at looking at some differences between the earlier and later AMT3's-in one location-hopefully it will be helpful to fellow Heil/AMT addicts!
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215055&d=1276381772
The first 2 pictures are pictures of the 4 ohm CTS woofers. These are the woofers I want to recone with 8 ohm voice coils. The cones are prefect-in fact I suspect they may have already been reconed in the not to distant past and the numbers on the rear of the cones 7713570-as I recall look very new, as well as the spider covers/adhesive.
I traded a set of Klipsch KG 5.5's for these at Midwest speaker in Roseville, MN.
I suspect he reconed them-but he mentioned them being refoamed. The meger attempt at sealing the drivers (putty looked very new) was also a clue to recent work.
Regardless-they won't work with the new 8 ohm crossover. I suppose I could wire the woofers in series, instead of parallel-but the crossover (either 4 or 8 ohm) isn't designed for the woofers being wired that way.
The older 4 ohm crossover that was present with these woofers used a total of 8-4 ohm resistors in the woofer circuit (installed between 2 inductors)-which didn't seem ideal.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215137&d=1276407528
I'm not sure if they were padding the woofer, or simply making the the load more resistive-or perhaps both. When measured-it brought the dc resistence up to about 3.6 ohms.
But it also seems to be a waste of power in heating up the resistors.
The later 3 coil 8ohm woofer crossover design seems to be the best compromise.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=168102&d=1252244885
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=266480&d=1301719120 (My new 8ohm copy)-not completely wired yet-(yellow for heil-blue for mid-green for woofer circuits)). It's not the prettiest-but I want the componets to stay put-and probably over did the adhesive-but better than dangeling caps or coils!
I know I will lose a slight amount of sensitivety- but hope fully get it back with the new higher efficiency crossover.
This last picture is of the 8ohm woofers-later design.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162955&d=1249345770
The original owner had these refoamed fairly recently, and did a horrible job of sealing-putty and silicone.
He also didn't was a bit rought with the woofer removal-as you can see a few chunks of the speaker mounting surface.
60 minute expoxy wroks well (do the front and the back) to stabilize and strengthen these surfaces. Hurricane nut and speaker gasket tape is also a must to prevent any further damage.
My second pair woofer sealing surfaces are darn near perfect-so care is needed. Judicious use of a heat gun, or hair dryer helps with the removal.
As you can see- both feature Alnico drivers-the CTS have a deeper basket and larger diameter voice coil, and larger magnet.
Both pairs of these speakers feature ported enclosures-the 4 ohm version uses a slighty shorter port- and also uses the Peerless Alnico midrange, which features a rubber surround, and vented dustcap.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=215136&d=1276407528
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213937&d=1275778257
My later AMT3's(8ohm woofers) have a ceramic magnet mid-paper cone with foam surround
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162952&d=1249345770
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162953&d=1249345770
Both type of mids are 8 ohms.
All 4 Heils are 4 ohm.
Anyway this is what I am looking at with by 2nd AMT3 rebuild-keeping the original 4 ohm woofers 4 ohms-or redoing the old crossover with it's 8 woofer circuit resistors. The rest is gravy.......!
And after looking at this post- this seems a convenient single post at looking at some differences between the earlier and later AMT3's-in one location-hopefully it will be helpful to fellow Heil/AMT addicts!
Last edited:
tromboneman
Member
AMT3 and AMT1am
I am relatively new to this forum but have owned several ESS Heil products over time.
For the past 6 years I have been using a pair of AMT1am Monitors. Not sure of the production year, but they have serial numbers in the 900 range. I just recently picked up a pair of AMT3's from the original owner, which look like the day he purchased them new! I made this move, based on all the comments I had read about the Rock Monitor having a better mid-range, and a smoother transition from the bottom end on up. These have serial numbers in the 4200 range and were originally purchased in 1974. I guess that means my AMT1am's were made quite a bit earlier than that date (if serial numbers mean anything).
The reason I was wondering about this is that the build quality of the cabinet itself is better on the AMT1am than it is on the AMT3's I just bought. The AMT1am cabinets have a 3/4" thick particle board front covers, that are attached with velcro. The Rock Monitors have very thin, flimsy, particle board front covers than are nailed in place. I wonder why ESS cheapened the cabinets in this manner. I have also read accounts of this thin particle board disintegrating over time. I suppose when this happens, the grille cloth will hold everything together.
I also am interested in your comments about woofer replacement. The former owner had the original 10" woofers replaced in 1985 (when the surrounds went bad) with the "best woofers that Pyle built back then", as he felt they were superior in many ways to the originals, Larger voice coils, larger magnet structure, etc, etc. Do you think that was a mistake (he thinks he still has the old ones in storage)? These AMT3's seem to sound quite good, but then I have never heard any others.
We did an A/B test against my original Monitors and, while the AMT1am Monitors had a more "mellow" sound the AMT3's had a little more "presence", which was what I expected from the mid-range driver. I was also surprised to find the bottom end was very similar in both sets of speakers.
I welcome your thoughts and comments with enthusiasm! I do plan to do your foam blocking treatment in the Heil section of the cabinets. Thanks for the idea and the great photos.
Garry in Portland
ps. If you're interested, I drive these with a Sansui AU-717 integrated amp.
I am relatively new to this forum but have owned several ESS Heil products over time.
For the past 6 years I have been using a pair of AMT1am Monitors. Not sure of the production year, but they have serial numbers in the 900 range. I just recently picked up a pair of AMT3's from the original owner, which look like the day he purchased them new! I made this move, based on all the comments I had read about the Rock Monitor having a better mid-range, and a smoother transition from the bottom end on up. These have serial numbers in the 4200 range and were originally purchased in 1974. I guess that means my AMT1am's were made quite a bit earlier than that date (if serial numbers mean anything).
The reason I was wondering about this is that the build quality of the cabinet itself is better on the AMT1am than it is on the AMT3's I just bought. The AMT1am cabinets have a 3/4" thick particle board front covers, that are attached with velcro. The Rock Monitors have very thin, flimsy, particle board front covers than are nailed in place. I wonder why ESS cheapened the cabinets in this manner. I have also read accounts of this thin particle board disintegrating over time. I suppose when this happens, the grille cloth will hold everything together.
I also am interested in your comments about woofer replacement. The former owner had the original 10" woofers replaced in 1985 (when the surrounds went bad) with the "best woofers that Pyle built back then", as he felt they were superior in many ways to the originals, Larger voice coils, larger magnet structure, etc, etc. Do you think that was a mistake (he thinks he still has the old ones in storage)? These AMT3's seem to sound quite good, but then I have never heard any others.
We did an A/B test against my original Monitors and, while the AMT1am Monitors had a more "mellow" sound the AMT3's had a little more "presence", which was what I expected from the mid-range driver. I was also surprised to find the bottom end was very similar in both sets of speakers.
I welcome your thoughts and comments with enthusiasm! I do plan to do your foam blocking treatment in the Heil section of the cabinets. Thanks for the idea and the great photos.
Garry in Portland
ps. If you're interested, I drive these with a Sansui AU-717 integrated amp.
Great buy!:thmbsp:
I would try to get the orginal woofers-refoam or recone them, and give them a try. The O.E. woofers really work good with the AMT3 cabinet, and provide a very flat response-that fast bass works well with the rest of the drivers. They can handle plenty of power.
Interesting the bass is similiar on both sets.
Are yours ported or sealed? Foam or rubber surround mid?
The grill frames I agree aren't the best-but they should be fine. You have to be careful with them, or you could crack them-but beyond that-they should ok.
Out of my 2 pairs-the later set was all screwed to the cabinet, while the ealier set only had two screw on the rear portion, and used Velcro on the rest.
I would paint all the exterior black surfaces with a good quality paint, strengthen the woofer and mid mounting surfaces with epoxy, and use Hurricane nuts to mount them, along the P.E. speaker gasketing material.
Use epoxy on all the interior seams to strengthen, and a final silicone bead to ensure sealing
Also seal the mid tube-it's easier to seal it from the inside.
I also used a panel of convulted foam placed in back of the woofers (over the crossover), along with the all the o.e. stuffing material to help break up staning waves.
If your's are ported- make sure no stuffing is blocking the port.
I would also recap-re-resitor the crossover, and a rewire is a good idea.
I would think your Sansui would be fine and a good match.
I settled on a H/K PA2400, and H/K Signature 1.5. I treid a few other amps, including some other H/K's-and found this were by far the best match. You might want to also experiment if you can borrow or demo.
As far as replacement woofers- some have had good luck with the 1040Sf woofers from OCS-excellent speaker-but I prefer the original Alnico woofers-I do still have a set-if at some point you would like to try them-but try the O.E.'s first, if they still are available.
You might have to adjust the port length, if yours are ported with the 1040's.
RonC had good luck the a Dayton SeriesII woofer, but this also looks like it needs a port adjustment. I think both of these woofers would benfit from a Zobel-similiar to the earlier 4 coil crossover design in the early AMT3's to clean them up a bit.
The main issues with bass response can be addressed by proper sealing, the blocking of the Heil cleans up the midbass response as well.
It's possible the Alnicos may be need of a recharge-but with the proper driving amp-the bass response of the OE woofers is very good-clean and full with plenty of volume and heft, with no doubling or lower artifacts-darn near perfect IMHO.
What they aren't is HT type speakers with booming fake bass-that some people prefer, which is fine, but it's not my cup of tea, and not what these speakers were designed for-they were designed to play music, in a highly dynamic and muscial manner-and they do this very well.
With the proper mods-these are astounding speakers-the imaging, soundstage detail, and perhaps the best-sheer musicality is just plain fantastic.
Well worth the effort IMHO.
Again, congrat's on the great buy, and another AMT in the family!!:thmbsp:
I would try to get the orginal woofers-refoam or recone them, and give them a try. The O.E. woofers really work good with the AMT3 cabinet, and provide a very flat response-that fast bass works well with the rest of the drivers. They can handle plenty of power.
Interesting the bass is similiar on both sets.
Are yours ported or sealed? Foam or rubber surround mid?
The grill frames I agree aren't the best-but they should be fine. You have to be careful with them, or you could crack them-but beyond that-they should ok.
Out of my 2 pairs-the later set was all screwed to the cabinet, while the ealier set only had two screw on the rear portion, and used Velcro on the rest.
I would paint all the exterior black surfaces with a good quality paint, strengthen the woofer and mid mounting surfaces with epoxy, and use Hurricane nuts to mount them, along the P.E. speaker gasketing material.
Use epoxy on all the interior seams to strengthen, and a final silicone bead to ensure sealing
Also seal the mid tube-it's easier to seal it from the inside.
I also used a panel of convulted foam placed in back of the woofers (over the crossover), along with the all the o.e. stuffing material to help break up staning waves.
If your's are ported- make sure no stuffing is blocking the port.
I would also recap-re-resitor the crossover, and a rewire is a good idea.
I would think your Sansui would be fine and a good match.
I settled on a H/K PA2400, and H/K Signature 1.5. I treid a few other amps, including some other H/K's-and found this were by far the best match. You might want to also experiment if you can borrow or demo.
As far as replacement woofers- some have had good luck with the 1040Sf woofers from OCS-excellent speaker-but I prefer the original Alnico woofers-I do still have a set-if at some point you would like to try them-but try the O.E.'s first, if they still are available.
You might have to adjust the port length, if yours are ported with the 1040's.
RonC had good luck the a Dayton SeriesII woofer, but this also looks like it needs a port adjustment. I think both of these woofers would benfit from a Zobel-similiar to the earlier 4 coil crossover design in the early AMT3's to clean them up a bit.
The main issues with bass response can be addressed by proper sealing, the blocking of the Heil cleans up the midbass response as well.
It's possible the Alnicos may be need of a recharge-but with the proper driving amp-the bass response of the OE woofers is very good-clean and full with plenty of volume and heft, with no doubling or lower artifacts-darn near perfect IMHO.
What they aren't is HT type speakers with booming fake bass-that some people prefer, which is fine, but it's not my cup of tea, and not what these speakers were designed for-they were designed to play music, in a highly dynamic and muscial manner-and they do this very well.
With the proper mods-these are astounding speakers-the imaging, soundstage detail, and perhaps the best-sheer musicality is just plain fantastic.
Well worth the effort IMHO.
Again, congrat's on the great buy, and another AMT in the family!!:thmbsp:
Last edited:
bill114
Active Member
As for the grilles, they are very flimsy. I ended up making new ones out of thin plywood and changed the grille cloth to a more modern looking black knit. I've also rebuilt my crossovers with great results. As far as the woofers go, I've replaced mine with the Eminence 1040SF and would never go back to the old stock woofers even after having the magnets recharged. Much better and deeper bass, improved lower mids and better integration with the transition driver. I haven't felt the need to mess with the port length since I also use a subwoofer. I've left the transition drivers as is since they sound fine. I just blocked off the sides of the Heils and the jury's still out on that. Have fun playing with your AMT 3s!
Good to hear 1040's are still sounding good!:thmbsp: I also like them, but prefer the voicing with the stock woofers It can be warm at times-but I don't mind a little of that from time to time. It's really program and program quality dependant anyway-just like many other speakers. The 1040's were a bit too much bass for my taste. Perhaps the increased midbass was what I didn't like so much more then anything.
The increased output of the 1040's also makes less apparent the benefit of the "Heil blocking" as their output doesn't cut off as cleanly with the stock crossover points as the stock woofers, and overlap more into the transition drivers range-accounitng for the increased midbass/lower midrange output. That's why I think a properly done Zobel would be beneficial. At some point I may investigate this-one based on the 4 coil 4 ohm Zobel crossover-but modified for the 8 ohm 1040.
This of course is a taste issue,as bill points out-he loves the 1040sf version and also really points out how versitile these speakers can be.
I would try both versions-Pyle vs stock if you can and go from there. No right or wrong-just what sounds best to you-and what works well with your system.
I know a ramble on about these speakers-I'm sure some grow tired of it-just take the info(from everyone) that works best for your situation.
RonC lives with both versions (Dayton Series II, but similair to the 1040), so his opinion might also prove to be helpul.
Last edited:
bill114
Active Member
One thing to take into account is the room the speakers are in. My listening area is 14' x 12' that opens up to a 12' x 30' dining/office area. The floor is tile and there's a large area rug in the listening area. I also have six 4' x 1.5'
sound absorbtion panels on the walls. My main issue was that with some program material the Heils exhibited a upper mid peak that was rather "piercing". A particular cut this was a problem with was my Polydor UK pressing of King Crimson's "Epitaph"from In The Court of the Crimson King. Some of the higher frequency mellotron parts were VERY loud. Blocking the sides of the Heils tamed this down a lot but at the sacrifice of a bit of spaciousness. A fair trade, I suppose. As you said, mojo, no right or wrong but what works best for your situation. This forum is great because of the knowledge and experience of the members:thmbsp:
You don't want to block the sides-only the front-to prevent cancelation.
Leave the sides open.
I think I posted a picture that had the front and the sides blocked off-and after listening realized my mistake-I should have corrected the picture.
My first system (2nd still under refrub) has the AMT3's up against a banister on a slpit level-which really seems to work well.
Addressing the bass issue again-I think if you stick with the stock woofers-the amp becomes more important. Part of it could be Alnico discharge-but the woofers aren't as efficient as the AMT, and possibly transition driver. A fact with other woofer tweeter combo's as well.
The H/K amps I have seems to have enough drive in the low end to make up for this.
I experimented with a few other amps, and non seemed to work as well-despite having high power.
The Acurus A250 was probably the worst of the bunch-not a good match with the AMT3's-thin bass, brittle highs. I didn't however try it with the matching Acurus preamp.
I would love to try them with a Citation I or V amp/preamp combo, as they never seemed like a 'slow' tube amp when I listened to them, and have great bass response-especially the V.
The main reason-in a nutshell I went back to the stock woofers-was because I found myself listening to the speakers instead of the music-like I was when I got my first pair of AMT3's-and I missed that.
I like the speakers disappearing and just have fun with the music.
I also ran into this when demoing cd players recently, and settled on one that played music and didn't draw attention to one specific thing.
Again a issue of taste.
Leave the sides open.
I think I posted a picture that had the front and the sides blocked off-and after listening realized my mistake-I should have corrected the picture.
My first system (2nd still under refrub) has the AMT3's up against a banister on a slpit level-which really seems to work well.
Addressing the bass issue again-I think if you stick with the stock woofers-the amp becomes more important. Part of it could be Alnico discharge-but the woofers aren't as efficient as the AMT, and possibly transition driver. A fact with other woofer tweeter combo's as well.
The H/K amps I have seems to have enough drive in the low end to make up for this.
I experimented with a few other amps, and non seemed to work as well-despite having high power.
The Acurus A250 was probably the worst of the bunch-not a good match with the AMT3's-thin bass, brittle highs. I didn't however try it with the matching Acurus preamp.
I would love to try them with a Citation I or V amp/preamp combo, as they never seemed like a 'slow' tube amp when I listened to them, and have great bass response-especially the V.
The main reason-in a nutshell I went back to the stock woofers-was because I found myself listening to the speakers instead of the music-like I was when I got my first pair of AMT3's-and I missed that.
I like the speakers disappearing and just have fun with the music.
I also ran into this when demoing cd players recently, and settled on one that played music and didn't draw attention to one specific thing.
Again a issue of taste.
Altec Best
Well-Known Member
Exactly ! I guess they never heard of Altec Lansing !
I do like the big heil Tweet's though.
Last edited: