Newer, cheap CD player vs old high-end?

[JohnVF]

I keep reading how new cheap DVD players are supposed to be equal to better players of the past but I honestly don't hear it, I just don't. My Denon, Samsung and Panasonic DVD players (all 2-5 years old) can't even beat my Sony CD recorder from a decade ago. My DVD players just sound thin. The top end is fatiguing..it's a sound seemingly made up of every bad digital stereotype that is out there.

 

[guiller]

I keep reading how new cheap DVD players are supposed to be equal to better players of the past but I honestly don't hear it, I just don't. My Denon, Samsung and Panasonic DVD players (all 2-5 years old) can't even beat my Sony CD recorder from a decade ago. My DVD players just sound thin. The top end is fatiguing..it's a sound seemingly made up of every bad digital stereotype that is out there.

My experiences go along the way you point out. I ask myself all the time why many people claim that a new cheap DVD player "outperforms" a TOTL redbook player of 10 years ago. This is totally at odds with my experiences. P erhaps the source material has something to do with this (I listen only to classical music, where there is no electronic amplification in the instruments themselves) or with the rest of the system that perhaps does not reveal the differences that I hear all the time. I would say that if one listens to a solo acoustic instrument, like a cello in Bach´s suites for unaccompanied cello, a violin in Bach´s sonatas and partitas for solo violin, a piano or an acoustic guitar then one can relate the sound of the CDP to the sound of the real instrument. Perhaps some people like the sound they get from the CDP, but at least I care about the fidelity of the reproduced sound: is it distinguishable from the real instrument one? In most cases I can say, yes. The exceptions are higher end CDPs, at least in my personal experience, and that form several musicians that come along to listening sessions at my home. The DVDPs I owned or sampled sound too artificial to my ears (e.g., artificial highs in a soprano voice, for example, or cymbals sounding very "abrasive", etc).

 

[Drifting]

The TDA1541 DACS are still current available to buy in kit form.

Here is the full CD/DAC list.

What is the difference between those DACS, and say, 1 bit Delta/Sigma DAC with 18 or 16 bit resolution?

 

[OldJBL]

I wouldn't be so sure about this. IF this was true, then why did the last cassette players, for example, NEVER equal the best Revox or Nak players from a decade previous. You would THINK they would be better, but it was not the case.

I would say it has to do with that technology being analog. Those devices are as much mechanical engineering as electronic. DVD/CD players are mostly functions of solid state electronics once you get past the disc loading and spin-up. Then when you consider digital signal transfer from one piece of equipment to another you can even take out the pre-amps in DVD/CD players. All that is happening is data is being read and run down a line (i.e. coax or optical) to the end user. Data transfer is so common place nowadays that even the lowest of low end electronics can do it unfailingly. When you think about it, todays DVD/CD players don't serve much of a function other than reading digital data and passing it down the line. The real work is done by pre-amps, receivers and/or dedicated amps and, finally, the speakers. A hard drive, computer, etc. can do just as good a job of shuffling along digital audio as a high end DVD/CD player.

 

[ambient]

I believe the OP was asking about fixing a 25 year old player vs buying a new Marantz unit, NOT about getting a 'cheap DVD player' that would magically be a revelation. IMO, a new Marantz, NAD, Rotel, etc. player might be 1) a more cost-effective solution than fixing the Mac and 2) a better option in terms of sound quality.

 

[Ausjoe]

I'm an owner of the aforementioned Rega Saturn and there is definitely a difference between it and a dvd player. Is it worth the price difference. Probably not to folks living month to month. Ya do what you gotta do in this life. If that means buying a 2-300 dollar player and convincing yourself it's close or good enough I ain't here to judge. I've got one myself, just not in the main system. Unless you're afflicted with audio nervosa you can still enjoy the music either way.

To the OP I also would fix the drawer and get a nice DAC. FWIW.

 

[thisOne]

I would say it has to do with that technology being analog. Those devices are as much mechanical engineering as electronic. DVD/CD players are mostly functions of solid state electronics once you get past the disc loading and spin-up. Then when you consider digital signal transfer from one piece of equipment to another you can even take out the pre-amps in DVD/CD players. All that is happening is data is being read and run down a line (i.e. coax or optical) to the end user. Data transfer is so common place nowadays that even the lowest of low end electronics can do it unfailingly. When you think about it, todays DVD/CD players don't serve much of a function other than reading digital data and passing it down the line. The real work is done by pre-amps, receivers and/or dedicated amps and, finally, the speakers. A hard drive, computer, etc. can do just as good a job of shuffling along digital audio as a high end DVD/CD player.

Somewhere in all of this you've forgotten the DAC. Whereas the electronics of a cheap CD player may do as good a job of running the digits down the line as an expensive CD player, the difference is the DAC. Unfortunately no real work can be done by any preamps, receivers and/or dedicated amps unless them CD digits can be converted from digital to analog.

All those preamps, receivers and/or dedicated amps will just take a crappy analog signal from a crappy DAC and pre and/or amplify it so you can hear how bad it really is

 

[Mister Pig]

There Are More Variables Than A Chip Set

Chip sets alone do not tell the whole story. It starts with disc handling, and older TOTL players have better transports than a mid priced CD player or a DVD player. With better disc handling and data reading, the machine has to do less error correction. Secondly, how does the player manipulate the data, and how is jitter dealt with. TOTL transports will induce less jitter at the data reading stage, so the player has less to correct. Also how is the power supply built? Mid priced CD players will compromise on the quality of the power supply, while the MAC will be well built. This has an effect on the digital stage of the machine, but also has a significant difference on the analog stage. Speaking of the analog stage, is the MAC a fully discrete output stage? Most of the mid priced CDP and all the DVD are going to use op-amps. While they may sound decent, they really don't seem to be the equal of a good discrete output stage. Finally, even the chassis is going to have an impact in the performance. If its less susceptible to vibration and other outside influences, its going to have a lower level of data corruption due to read errors.

I had a JVC XL-Z1050TN CDP for awhile, which I used as a transport. My DAC uses the Burr Brown PCM 1704 chip set, which is a multi bit design. It also uses fully discrete output devices, and it is easy to tell this DAC is superior in terms of sound quality any CD player I have brought home.

But one night I decided to run the JVC as a stand alone player. This machine was a TOTL player in 1991 or so, with a MSRP of $800. It performed admirably well. Not as good as my DAC, which sells for 2.5K, but still it did a nice job. I could listen to it all evening, and enjoy it.

In regards to the MAC CDP, I would have it serviced if it wasn't too expensive to do. I bet it would make a nice transport at the very least, and still be a viable stand alone player.

Of course this is just a barnyard animals opinion. If you want another go ask the cows. Don't ask the chickens, as fowl cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[OldJBL]

Tell that to my Shure D6000E cause apparently he didn't get that memo.

When I mention obsolete I am talking about electronics used and features available. Not it being obsolete to its owner/user. For me, I wouldn't pay a lot for any DVD/CD player today. The first CD player I bought was a Sony ES model and it died in less than two years and by that time it wasn't worth repairing because technology had advanced so far in two years it was obsolete. The performance of high end DVD/CD players just isn't worth the cost. Especially when there are other options to consider like using computers for playback.

I have a computer hooked up to my HDTV and A/V receiver and it does so much more than any high end DVD/CD player ever could. I can customize it with high end audio and/or video cards and get unbelievable sound quality from it. I don't even have a DVD/CD player hooked up anymore. The computer made it obsolete instantly.

IMO, it won't be long before CD/DVD/Bluray technology starts giving way to something else. Sure there will be the hold-ons that keep it going like vinyl is today but the days of using large discs are numbered. Personally, I think we are headed to data streaming via the Internet. This is why the computer will continue to take a more prominent roll regarding entertainment. Don't believe me? Do a Google search for HTPC and/or media streaming.

 

[OldJBL]

All those preamps, receivers and/or dedicated amps will just take a crappy analog signal from a crappy DAC and pre and/or amplify it so you can hear how bad it really is

This is irrelevant for me. I connect via digital coax or optical cables. If I used a DVD/CD player all it would be for me is a digital data shuffler. Not much different than a hard drive or flash card reader.

 

[OldJBL]

To the OP I also would fix the drawer and get a nice DAC. FWIW.

I agree. Separate the functions and put the money into a solid state piece that is inherently more reliable than something that has a mechanical component that is more prone to failure. Then utilize digital signal transfer to minimize the need for a high end player. Plus, I think it would sound better with a dedicated DAC and give the used far more control over the sound output.

 

[davidro]

Whilst OP's Q appears (sadly) neglected by now, this Q re newer DVDP vs old TOTL CDP is fascinating. I'm using a Marantz CD5003 and a Toshiba DVDP in each room for playing CDs. Whilst I haven't really compared them face to face I can't tell that much of difference between them. Re the mid sounding wear etc can easily be fixed by tone control on the amp IMO. I might actually compare them face to face but I suspect the difference will be marginal if any. Perhaps some real TOTL vintage stuff may outdo my Marantz?

Another consideration would be older TOTL CDPs may be a few times more exp than the newer DVDPs. Not to mention the old pick-ups in older ones that may fail any given day. In terms of looks and placebo effect however oldies may have an upper hand.

 

[Extelleron]

Wow, this thread sure took off. Anyway I opened up the MCD7000 and lubricated the gears that open/close the drive and it works, for now at least. Usually you can get it to work for a while just by opening it up and fiddling with it, so I'll have to see if it lasts long-term. As long as it works I will keep that.

Still can't listen to the system though because the left-channel on my mc2500 does not work. Going to have to get that looked at by audioclassics. All of a sudden everything I own seems to have something wrong with it. Tandberg cassette deck won't play for whatever reason (hit play, it brings the tape up but does not hold it in place, it immediately releases it.) And Thorens turntable, the button that is supposed to bring the arm down to the record no longer works.

 

[blackfly]

A hard drive, computer, etc. can do just as good a job of shuffling along digital audio as a high end DVD/CD player.

No chance. Not one. There is NO WAY any computer puts as much thought into the audio side of things, being retrieval, sonics or detail, that an audio company does. This is a copp-out statement simply thinking technology is always better and not realizing that there is still an "art element" to sound.

Consider this: Meridian Audio came out with an Aphodising Filter that "eliminates preringing" in CDs. Now, it is suppose to be revolutionary. But I have, right in front of me, a Denon CDP catalogue from 1993 that CLEARLY shows they knew of Aphodising (not that they called it that) and FIXED it with their "Alpha Circuit". AND this is 15 or so years before Meridian "invented it". Get real.

Computers may be indespensable and even necessary but they are no panacea, especially when audio is concerned. Where we are headed, yes, but not the goalpost for sure.

 

[OldJBL]

No chance. Not one. There is NO WAY any computer puts as much thought into the audio side of things, being retrieval, sonics or detail, that an audio company does. This is a copp-out statement simply thinking technology is always better and not realizing that there is still an "art element" to sound.

When it comes to reading, and transmitting, digital data there is no "art" involved. It comes down to ones and zeros. In fact, everything digital comes down to ones and zeros whether it is music, software, video etc. If a DVD/CD player is used to output a digital signal to a DAC, computer, receiver etc. then its function is basically reading ones and zeros and passing the information on to the next component. It makes little difference whether this is done with a $1,000 player or a $100 player.

Think about it. Why do you think numerous generations of digital music files can be made with no loss of quality? It is because reading and writing digital data is extremely reliable. This is also the reason there is no discernible difference between a high end and low end DVD/CD player outputting digital data via coax, TOSLink or HDMI.

For analog systems there might be an "art" involved. For digital it is either a one or a zero and there are no other options to consider. There is no "art" involved in the process. Maybe that comes in later from the preamp, amplification and finally the speakers at the end of the line but I think of it more as personal preference than "art".

 

[Mr. Lin]

Consider this: Meridian Audio came out with an Aphodising Filter that "eliminates preringing" in CDs. Now, it is suppose to be revolutionary. But I have, right in front of me, a Denon CDP catalogue from 1993 that CLEARLY shows they knew of Aphodising (not that they called it that) and FIXED it with their "Alpha Circuit". AND this is 15 or so years before Meridian "invented it". Get real.

Meridian didn't claim they invented this filter, the head of the company said in an interview he's confident that they're currently the only ones using this technique.

Computers may be indespensable and even necessary but they are no panacea, especially when audio is concerned. Where we are headed, yes, but not the goalpost for sure.

Agree with you 100% on this. Just because that's the direction audio is headed everyone seems to think it's already superior, and CD players are already obsolete. I think not.

 

[JoeESP9]

Just for giggles this is something to try.

Get two CD-RW's. Copy a music disk to one. Copy that to the other RW. Alternate until the 25 generation. Listen to the result. I've done this. It's a very interesting exercise.

What the hell. Do it with one tune. Use EAC for "bit perfect" copies if you want.

Mods: I'm sorry. Maybe I should have started a new thread. Move this if you think it's best. I figured I already had a good audience on this thread.

 

[jimbofish]

Just for giggles this is something to try.

Get two CD-RW's. Copy a music disk to one. Copy that to the other RW. Alternate until the 25 generation. Listen to the result. I've done this. It's a very interesting exercise.

What the hell. Do it with one tune. Use EAC for "bit perfect" copies if you want.

Mods: I'm sorry. Maybe I should have started a new thread. Move this if you think it's best. I figured I already had a good audience on this thread.

So, tell us... I'm guessing they sound bad. :scratch2:

 

[JohnVF]

For what it's worth I've known very few, if any, people who argue that all digital sounds the same who have actually heard a top-shelf CD player.

 

[OldJBL]

For what it's worth I've known very few, if any, people who argue that all digital sounds the same who have actually heard a top-shelf CD player.

If you are referring to analog output from DVD/CD players then I agree. If you are referring to digital output then I don't agree. All digital reads virtually the same in DVD/CD players regardless of price and they pass a digital signal virtually the same.