Newer, cheap CD player vs old high-end?

[JohnVF]

If you are referring to analog output from DVD/CD players then I agree. If you are referring to digital output then I don't agree. All digital reads virtually the same in DVD/CD players regardless of price and they pass a digital signal virtually the same.

Yes, I'm talking about stand-alone CD players (or DACs, even) and their analog output. I have no experience with different transports so can't say anything about them one way or another.

I just know that I've read countless times that there is no difference, and I can plainly hear a difference now that I've finally been able to get a higher end CD player in my own setup. I'm sure somebody's going to say I can hear a difference because I paid more for it, and all I can say about that is that I can't type here what I really want to say to those people.

 

[OldJBL]

Just for giggles this is something to try.

Get two CD-RW's. Copy a music disk to one. Copy that to the other RW. Alternate until the 25 generation. Listen to the result. I've done this. It's a very interesting exercise.

What the hell. Do it with one tune. Use EAC for "bit perfect" copies if you want.

Using CD/DVD media for this exercise is highly dependent on the equipment and media used. Try the same thing with a hard drive, flash memory etc. and you won't be able to discern any difference. If what you claim was a problem inherently in digital data then torrents wouldn't exist etc.

Reading, or making a copy of, an original source disk using an average read/write drive and decent media has so little error involved that no human can detect it. I can't refute your claim because I have never done it and I have no patience to do it. I also don't see where it means anything in the real world for the average person.

 

[OldJBL]

Yes, I'm talking about stand-alone CD players (or DACs, even) and their analog output. I have no experience with different transports so can't say anything about them one way or another.

I just know that I've read countless times that there is no difference, and I can plainly hear a difference now that I've finally been able to get a higher end CD player in my own setup. I'm sure somebody's going to say I can hear a difference because I paid more for it, and all I can say about that is that I can't type here what I really want to say to those people.

My argument for TOTL verses budget players is only in regard to digital data. Once you get into analog circuitry many variables come into play. There might be a growing difference between TOTL and mid/low end players developing. As HT and digital output become more widely used there my be less attention paid to the analog circuitry and might not be included in all DVD/BD players in the future. Before this happens though I think the CD/DVD/BD format will be long gong and replaced with streaming, flash media or something not yet on the RADAR screen.

 

[OldJBL]

Agree with you 100% on this. Just because that's the direction audio is headed everyone seems to think it's already superior, and CD players are already obsolete. I think not.

There are two areas where obsolete is defined independently. One is being obsolete to an advancing industry and the other is being obsolete to the end user. While the electronics industry considers vinyl records obsolete many individuals don't consider them obsolete. The same goes for eight track and cassettes.

Advances in Internet streaming of video/audio data and the assent of other recording media spell the end of the 5.25" disc, IMO. I think the successor will be flash memory until something better comes along. It is small, reliable, reusable, needs little power to use and the devices that use it can be made very small.

 

[jeremyjustic]

i have had to buy 5 dvd players in the last 3 years. all used with care and all just stopped working in one way or another. yes they are cheap now but this is just annoying as hell, who wants to have to replace something every 5 months. i would repair the mac. it will always have value and quality you can depend on.

 

[Mister Pig]

No...No They Don't

If you are referring to analog output from DVD/CD players then I agree. If you are referring to digital output then I don't agree. All digital reads virtually the same in DVD/CD players regardless of price and they pass a digital signal virtually the same.

Lets see awhile back I ran four different transports into my Audio Magic Kukama DAC. A JVC XL-Z1050TN, a EAD T-1000, a highly modified Squeezebox, and a Phillips DVP-642 DVD player.

They all sounded different. Same DAC, same digital cable, same source. The Phillips sounded the worst of the bunch, but it wasn't too bad. Far better than a Toshiba 3960 I was compared it to as a transport.

Computers, DVD players, and any other kind of source does not sound the same. You think it would, but it doesn't. Maybe its jitter, maybe its power supply issues, maybe its impedance differences on the digital output cable...very few are a true 75 ohms....especially amongst computers and DVD players.

My experience says this is not the case. And I did some very thorough listening.

ps lets not forget that a computer radiates huge amounts of RFI and EMI, and many cables and or systems are not immune to its effects.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[OldJBL]

Lets see awhile back I ran four different transports into my Audio Magic Kukama DAC. A JVC XL-Z1050TN, a EAD T-1000, a highly modified Squeezebox, and a Phillips DVP-642 DVD player.

They all sounded different. Same DAC, same digital cable, same source. The Phillips sounded the worst of the bunch, but it wasn't too bad. Far better than a Toshiba 3960 I was compared it to as a transport.

After I built the HTPC sitting in my stack I left the Pioneer DV-410 DVD player hooked up. I played CDs and DVDs through it and the HTPC. There was no difference in sound I could discern and I gave a decent edge to the HTPC for video quality. Hence the DVD player has been permanently removed as it was just taking up space. I will concede that some of the mechanical systems in DVD players could be different and might affect read accuracy to some extent but this is not the norm, IMO. There are programs that can analyze the read/write accuracy of computer DVD drives. Maybe I'll look around and see if there is something for analyzing the read/write accuracy of DVD/CD players using their digital outputs.

 

[blackfly]

When it comes to reading, and transmitting, digital data there is no "art" involved. It comes down to ones and zeros. In fact, everything digital comes down to ones and zeros whether it is music, software, video etc. If a DVD/CD player is used to output a digital signal to a DAC, computer, receiver etc. then its function is basically reading ones and zeros and passing the information on to the next component. It makes little difference whether this is done with a $1,000 player or a $100 player.

Think about it. Why do you think numerous generations of digital music files can be made with no loss of quality? It is because reading and writing digital data is extremely reliable. This is also the reason there is no discernible difference between a high end and low end DVD/CD player outputting digital data via coax, TOSLink or HDMI.

For analog systems there might be an "art" involved. For digital it is either a one or a zero and there are no other options to consider. There is no "art" involved in the process. Maybe that comes in later from the preamp, amplification and finally the speakers at the end of the line but I think of it more as personal preference than "art".

I could not disagree more. Digital IS ones and zeros, but the accuracy and detail upon which they are retreived is debatable, and certainly when it gets to the DAC part of things. To say nothing of the quality of the master clock or resultant circuitry that makes the sound smoothe and clear. Reading and writing digital files is VERY different from music, and the sooner people realise this the better. Copying a digital photo will take MANY generations for the photo to show any warts, but music is not the case, and degredation is definte, albeit slow.

And if you don't think there is an art to making TRULY good sound, then explain why there are so many plain boxes that are labelled CD Players and some that are worthy of keeping for decades? Mass market is simply numbers. Art is timeless.

 

[blackfly]

Meridian didn't claim they invented this filter, the head of the company said in an interview he's confident that they're currently the only ones using this technique.QUOTE]

Of course. Denon figured it out 17 years ago, hence, there is no problem. But it is funny it has been hailed by Robert Harley (I have the article and issue in my back issues) as a breakthrough when in fact it is not. Yet another piece of evidence the high end is not the "forefront" it thinks it is but will use any development in the defense of its pricing.

 

[whoaru99]

Lets see awhile back I ran four different transports into my Audio Magic Kukama DAC. A JVC XL-Z1050TN, a EAD T-1000, a highly modified Squeezebox, and a Phillips DVP-642 DVD player.

They all sounded different. Same DAC, same digital cable, same source. The Phillips sounded the worst of the bunch, but it wasn't too bad. Far better than a Toshiba 3960 I was compared it to as a transport.

Computers, DVD players, and any other kind of source does not sound the same. You think it would, but it doesn't. Maybe its jitter, maybe its power supply issues, maybe its impedance differences on the digital output cable...very few are a true 75 ohms....especially amongst computers and DVD players.

My experience says this is not the case. And I did some very thorough listening.

ps lets not forget that a computer radiates huge amounts of RFI and EMI, and many cables and or systems are not immune to its effects.

Regards
Mister Pig

My brother and I did the same type of thing, level matched to a couple thousandths of a volt and all that good stuff. My opinion, and his, was that they all sounded the same, as best we could tell, when played back via digital connection using the same DAC and rest of chain. Admittedly we didn't have anything like a $5K player, but we did the best we could within a range of about $65 to $1K.

 

[Extelleron]

Not sure if anybody cares about the original poster anymore :tears: Nah it's okay lol

I actually purchased an MVP841 to replace the MCD7000. I don't know how great of a CD player it is but I'm sure it is better than the unit I have now. I can probably make up most of the cost selling the MCD7000. Honestly I'm surprised the MVP831/841 and such don't go for more money. I thought people would pay $1000+ for one in good condition but apparently not.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Of course. Denon figured it out 17 years ago, hence, there is no problem. But it is funny it has been hailed by Robert Harley (I have the article and issue in my back issues) as a breakthrough when in fact it is not. Yet another piece of evidence the high end is not the "forefront" it thinks it is but will use any development in the defense of its pricing.

All I know is that I want one.

 

[OldJBL]

I could not disagree more. Digital IS ones and zeros, but the accuracy and detail upon which they are retreived is debatable, and certainly when it gets to the DAC part of things.

I am not talking about DACs. I am referring to the accuracy of the initial disc read and laser pickup of the raw data. If the digital output of the player is used then the DVD/CD player's DAC is not used and therefor irrelevant.

One other reason a DVD player might be a close match to an older TOTL CD player is reading and processing DVDs is much more demanding than a CD. DVDs need a higher bit rate for audio and video is even more demanding. Then there is the smaller track width of DVDs versus CDs. By designing a DVD player to read DVDs it might make reading a CD inherently more accurate.

And if you don't think there is an art to making TRULY good sound, then explain why there are so many plain boxes that are labelled CD Players and some that are worthy of keeping for decades? Mass market is simply numbers. Art is timeless.

All "art" comes down to R&D and good engineering. The more effort put into these by intelligent people results in better sound. Some might consider that "art". The people that design the box that holds all the components might be considered art. That shouldn't be confused with excellent performance, IMO. I don't necessarily give exclusive rights to high end equipment for being marvels of design. Sometimes it can go to a lower end piece that delivers outstanding performance at a given price point through excellent and/or efficient engineering and R&D. To be honest, IMO, many expensive players are kept for decades for nostalgia reasons or because they were so expensive to purchase initially.

I would never buy a high end CD player today. Not when I can rip a CD to a lossless format and store it on a hard drive. Then buy a high end audio card for the computer for a fraction of the cost of a high end CD player or DAC for that matter. Connect it to any high end amp/speakers of your choosing and have a killer sound system. Then connect that computer to the Internet and have access to more radio stations or music sites (from all over the world) than you could ever want or need. You could sit and listen to music, surf the web, watch sports etc. separately or all at the same time.

 

[OldJBL]

Honestly I'm surprised the MVP831/841 and such don't go for more money. I thought people would pay $1000+ for one in good condition but apparently not.

The economy is hurting the prices of many things. I see so much stuff for sale anymore that just a few years ago would go for 50-100% more than it does today.

Another reason, IMO, is there are many more options for people today for reading and processing CDs. As I just posted, computers have become very capable audio processors and make storing, cataloging and playing music extremely easy. With all the lossless formats available, no one has to give up one ounce of the quality you get from a reading a CD directly.

 

[voltcontrol]

Not sure if anybody cares about the original poster anymore :tears: Nah it's okay lol

I actually purchased an MVP841 to replace the MCD7000. I don't know how great of a CD player it is but I'm sure it is better than the unit I have now. I can probably make up most of the cost selling the MCD7000. Honestly I'm surprised the MVP831/841 and such don't go for more money. I thought people would pay $1000+ for one in good condition but apparently not.

If you don't like the Mac cdp, they fetch a lot of money in Europe...
Nice to see the OP still in here

 

[reggaenaut]

OldJBL I certainly enjoyed your postings in this thread.:thmbsp: Thank you.

 

[Old_Tech]

spare yourself a lot of grief (and reading through dozens of threads here) and get a new NAD C515BEE, you will love it and it's just $300.

If everything else fails this is a nice affordable player you might want to check out.

I'd have your existing CD player evaluated by a McIntosh technician before deciding to get a new one. For me, it would take a Rega Saturn to even come close to one of these.

Have your player looked at first.

I've been looking at newer models (I cannot afford a new mcintosh model or other high end player) and saw the marantz cd5003/5004 that are supposedly decent for around $350. I'm wondering how you think something like that would compare to the mcd7000? Obviously the 7000 was great when I bought it but I'm thinking a decent player 25 years later must be better? Would this player be reasonable to pair with a 80s mcintosh system (mc2500, c33, thiel cs3.6)? Thanks.

I could not compare because I have not heard the MCD7000 but the Marantz players are very nice. I own one and am very happy with it the sound is gorgeous.

 

[thisOne]

This is irrelevant for me. I connect via digital coax or optical cables. If I used a DVD/CD player all it would be for me is a digital data shuffler. Not much different than a hard drive or flash card reader.

Except that at some point in your digital shuffle the ones and zeros need to be converted to an analog signal (by a Digital to Analog Converter = DAC) so this analog signal can be fed into your analog speakers, since digital speakers (although theoretically possible) are not yet available to reproduce any form of respectable sound quality level (unless you consider your computer speaker of sufficient quality to reproduce a respectable level of sound).

Your ears hear analog sound, speakers need analog signal to create the sound, you need a DAC to create an analog signal, and whereas there may be (theoretically) no loss of information in the processing of your musical ones and zeros, the “crappiness” of the DAC (either separate or incorporated in any form of a digital player that ultimately feeds the signal to your analog speakers) is the piece of electronics that makes a difference in the signal path that leads to sound generation.

That is why there is so much debate between the analog world (where you don’t have to worry about converting one form of signal to another) and the digital world (where you do), but that is a hot topic covered in lots of other threads here, so we’ll just leave it at that

 

[thisOne]

I would never buy a high end CD player today. Not when I can rip a CD to a lossless format and store it on a hard drive. Then buy a high end audio card for the computer for a fraction of the cost of a high end CD player or DAC for that matter. Connect it to any high end amp/speakers of your choosing and have a killer sound system. Then connect that computer to the Internet and have access to more radio stations or music sites (from all over the world) than you could ever want or need. You could sit and listen to music, surf the web, watch sports etc. separately or all at the same time.

I'd say that someday, like some others, you may get an opportunity to actually HEAR a properly reproduced sounds of music by a high quality system and you will realize (although you may be too ashamed to admit it out loud) how poor the sound is you've been so admiring coming out of your computer system

It actually is like the difference between a TV dinner and dining at a fine restaurant. You can get a pretty good TV dinner in today's supermarket, and the taste of it may be quite surprisingly good..., until you compare it to fine cuisine prepared by a top chef...:scratch2:

You decide if there is a difference.

Regarding the OP..., fix the Mac

 

[thisOne]

All "art" comes down to R&D and good engineering.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: