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Nichicon audio grade caps....which to use

M

matt e.

AK Subscriber
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https://www.mouser.com/new/nichicon/Nichicon-Audio-Caps/

I'm preparing an order and am trying to make sense of the different Nichicon audio grade cap series. I don't need many so price isn't an issue. My goals are to achieve the lowest THD and use something reliable. I don't want to be recapping this thing five years from now. When looking at the datasheet the life endurance spec is considerably less for the highest sound quality caps. The amp I'm working on is 50 year old Heathkit AA15 that uses those old brown pcb's that are getting brittle from age. I don't know how many times it can be recapped before the board gives out and I really didn't want to have to make new ones. Will I be happy with the UKW series? I planned on using Kemet tantalums for most of the smaller value caps on the preamp board for long term reliability.

UKZ - Best - 1000hours $.55
UFG - 2nd - 1000hours $.47
UKW - 3rd - 2000hours $.43
UKA - 4th - 1000hours (high temp) $.51
UKT - 5th - 1000hours (high temp) $.48
UFW - 6th - 2000hours $.22

edit: I think above is how they rank in sound quality according to datasheets.
Price is based on 47uF 50v comparison. The FW series is the best value. Maybe all the rest are designed to empty our wallets faster?

Matt
 
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matt e. said:
I planned on using Kemet tantalums for most of the smaller value caps on the preamp board for long term reliability.
Click to expand...
Why use tantalums? Films are what most recommended to use around here. My guess is that you would (actually) hear zero difference in all of the caps listed above. I would use 105°C caps for longest reliability.
 
I use tants in test equipment, but never in audio equipment. Go with films where you can. I don't subscribe to the whole "audio grade" cap thing. Read the literature for the commercial grade parts and select by life, solvent resistant seal and size. I avoid the very miniature caps. Match the original lead spacing- you never want to spread or narrow the leads at the seal on installation.
 
matt e. said:
https://www.mouser.com/new/nichicon/Nichicon-Audio-Caps/

I'm preparing an order and am trying to make sense of the different Nichicon audio grade cap series. I don't need many so price isn't an issue. My goals are to achieve the lowest THD and use something reliable. I don't want to be recapping this thing five years from now. When looking at the datasheet the life endurance spec is considerably less for the highest sound quality caps. The amp I'm working on is 50 year old Heathkit AA15 that uses those old brown pcb's that are getting brittle from age. I don't know how many times it can be recapped before the board gives out and I really didn't want to have to make new ones. Will I be happy with the UKW series? I planned on using Kemet tantalums for most of the smaller value caps on the preamp board for long term reliability.

UKZ - Best - 1000hours $.55
UFG - 2nd - 1000hours $.47
UKW - 3rd - 2000hours $.43
UKA - 4th - 1000hours (high temp) $.51
UKT - 5th - 1000hours (high temp) $.48
UFW - 6th - 2000hours $.22

edit: I think above is how they rank in sound quality according to datasheets.
Price is based on 47uF 50v comparison. The FW series is the best value. Maybe all the rest are designed to empty our wallets faster?

Matt
Click to expand...

How I approach it, is - they had no audio caps 50 years back, nor gilded connections, still everything sounded good. Why should I believe "audio caps" are better for audio? What parameters decide this? If ESR and leakage then sorry but the top shelf GP series have them better, and life span of 4000 - 20,000 hrs @ 105C. Would 50 year old equipment still work well had it had magic cotton audio caps installed 50 years ago with extra high ESR and ultra short life span, don't think so.

BTW
Below how Vishay translates life span of their caps from max temperature of 85C to more typical of 40C

Useful life at 85 °C 2,500 h
Useful life at 40 °C,1.4 x IR applied 70,000 h
 
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Reading through the data sheet mission statements for these Nichicon audiophile caps is truly a prime example of translation malfeasance.

That said I beleive that many of the mainstream Asian audio companies' engineers challenged Nichicon to come up with " better" audiophile accepted caps for their premium efforts. For example you will find these caps in most Sony ES products.

Heat kills caps so the hours rating you have posted is showing their expected lifespan at 85C or 105C, much higher temps than you should find inside your solid state amp.

You could always use the Panasonic FC 105C caps that are supposed to sound better than most.
 
c_dk said:
Reading through the data sheet mission statements for these Nichicon audiophile caps is truly a prime example of translation malfeasance.

That said I beleive that many of the mainstream Asian audio companies' engineers challenged Nichicon to come up with " better" audiophile accepted caps for their premium efforts. For example you will find these caps in most Sony ES products.

Heat kills caps so the hours rating you have posted is showing their expected lifespan at 85C or 105C, much higher temps than you should find inside your solid state amp.

You could always use the Panasonic FC 105C caps that are supposed to sound better than most.
Click to expand...

Yeah some golden ears reported that FC series sounded almost as good as audio caps though I suppose it's a placebo thing of their blue and gold colors, then they reported that FM series was even better, which I supppose was the placebo effect of even more and brighter golden color of these caps combined with the name code (FM) which has been related to audio for long, then FR series caps came and nobody noticed their musical merit although they are next in line, but they are black and ugly looking that does not give them that audio aura.

Still I recommend the FM series as they have excellent ESR, leakage and lifespan. FR I suppose are FM put in tougher cases cause they have same all parameters but longer life span. I use FR.
 
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Matt: Your Heathkit came with general purpose capacitors that were manufactured with the process technology that was commonly available 50 years ago. Any modern capacitor from a name brand company will be better than the originals.

The amplifiers THD has more to do with it's design than the components used in it. You will likely not have much difference in the final outcome by using one type of "audio grade" part over another. - Chris
 
I am aware the use of tantalums is controversial. Some say sound better some say stink. Maybe depends on what tants you use? Prices vary considerably and all the higher values are cost prohibitive. This forum article likes them: http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=3526.15. This amp has 16, 10uf 15v electrolytics mostly on the preamp board. I considered using film, but couldn't find any. On a second look I was able to find a 10uf 50v WIMA MKS2B051001N00JS that is narrow and tall that will probably fit (will measure first) and is about the same cost as the Kemet tants. Regarding all the electrolytics I doubt I could hear the difference unless I made a breadboard test set up and really did a lot of experimenting. Might get some improvement from changing the signal path resistors, but it came with 5% metal film low noise resistors already and they shouldn't degrade like carbon resistors. Once I get it up and running I'll know better. Thanks for the input. Always helpful here.
 
ChrisMarantz said:
Matt: Your Heathkit came with general purpose capacitors that were manufactured with the process technology that was commonly available 50 years ago. Any modern capacitor from a name brand company will be better than the originals.

The amplifiers THD has more to do with it's design than the components used in it. You will likely not have much difference in the final outcome by using one type of "audio grade" part over another. - Chris
Click to expand...

My goal is to reach the original published THD specs. I have an HP8903A I bought several years ago to validate my work (basically a digital synthesized audio generator and digital THD meter). I hate to admit, but I've never used it. I got it with some other HP equip at a factory auction and need to build a new bench since it's all so big.
 
arts said:
Matt-whenever I have to replace higher-value (4.7uf & up) electrolytic or tantalum coupling caps,I always use the ''low leakage'' Nichicon UKL series:

https://www.digikey.ca/products/en/...ity=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pageSize=25

Below 4.7uf,I use the Kemet R82 in the 50V or 63V range,as the footprint is really suited to pcb work:

https://www.digikey.ca/products/en/...ity=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pageSize=25
Click to expand...

arts, thanks for those links. I searched the forum before I made this post and saw your use and cautions about controlling solder heat that were very helpful. The Kemets do look good. Too bad they stop at 4.7uf. I was primarily getting away from electrolytics to extend the circuit board's future life. 16 of those WIMA's cost about $38. This amp also has a bad right channel power amp. It came originally with 40409/410 drivers feeding a pair of 40411 output trans. There are alternatives I probably could've used, but since I don't really know what I'm doing I decided it was best to stick with the original numbers. The cost is higher. I'll probably have a little over $100 in parts by the time I'm finished. Hopefully somebody appreciates it later on when I decide to sell it. When the amp is finished I'll start work on the matching AJ15 FM tuner. This outfit also came with a nice pair of Dynaco A25's that I'll recap after getting the black goo loosened up.
 
matt e. said:
arts, thanks for those links. I searched the forum before I made this post and saw your use and cautions about controlling solder heat that were very helpful. The Kemets do look good. Too bad they stop at 4.7uf. I was primarily getting away from electrolytics to extend the circuit board's future life. 16 of those WIMA's cost about $38. This amp also has a bad right channel power amp. It came originally with 40409/410 drivers feeding a pair of 40411 output trans. There are alternatives I probably could've used, but since I don't really know what I'm doing I decided it was best to stick with the original numbers. The cost is higher. I'll probably have a little over $100 in parts by the time I'm finished. Hopefully somebody appreciates it later on when I decide to sell it. When the amp is finished I'll start work on the matching AJ15 FM tuner. This outfit also came with a nice pair of Dynaco A25's that I'll recap after getting the black goo loosened up.
Click to expand...

I went back and checked out the Wima cap that you mentioned,and they are a lot smaller than I would have expected for a film type of 10uf,and not too expensive either.I'll be looking at them for future projects,but only Mouser carries those values. I do prefer Digikey for their shipping,which is either cheap or free,haha!

Also,the Kemets can be had with long leads (part#s containing DQ,CK or Z3) which oftentimes makes mounting in tight places easier.

Keep in mind,the life ratings of electrolytic capacitors are (by reputable manufacturers,at least) specified at full rated temperature,voltage and ripple current.In other words,this is their lifespan under worst-case operating conditions,which is why most (but certainly not all!) electrolytics last for several decades longer than they should.Very few are ever operated anywhere near these these conditions,so any good quality electrolytic capacitor that you install today will in all likelihood only require replacement long after we have ''expired''. Warranty callbacks shouldn't be an issue:)

Those RCA 40xxx series transistors were enormously popular in that era,and were used everywhere.The 40409/410 types seemed to be the drivers of choice for many manufacturers,all the way from Acoustic Control Corporation (you've seen their blue amplifiers on many stages,including Woodstock) to Mcintosh.Good parts,but harder to find now.
 
arts said:
Keep in mind,the life ratings of electrolytic capacitors are (by reputable manufacturers,at least) specified at full rated temperature,voltage and ripple current.In other words,this is their lifespan under worst-case operating conditions,which is why most (but certainly not all!) electrolytics last for several decades longer than they should.Very few are ever operated anywhere near these these conditions,so any good quality electrolytic capacitor that you install today will in all likelihood only require replacement long after we have ''expired''. Warranty callbacks shouldn't be an issue:)
Click to expand...

The formula for capacitor life expectancy is - The number of hours doubles for each 10°C reduction in the operating temperature of the component (based on the data sheet). If you start with 105°C capacitors and calculate the life down to the most nominal temperature for the type of device it is being used in - the life expectancy will be measured in decades. In my experience for home amplifiers you should expect to get between 20 - 25 years with normal use - Chris
 
The Nichicon pdf of which caps are the next step show a few different limbs on the tree. Here is what it breaks down to with >> meaning the next step UP.

high temp
KT>>KA both 105°

the only group that has a premium grade cap listed, just the last one.
FW>>FG>>KZ (better grade-to premium)

FW>>KW (better sound quality)

FW>>SW>>MW>>UQ (smaller as you go)

FW also has a branch to bipolar caps, the ES and the DB*GB for crossovers.

Doesn't make complete sense but it shows the top in each group. Whether it is better than another top cap, IDK.

The PDF is available on Nichicon's site.
 
Well the first thing you need to do is a basic bench test, get to know how to use your new to you test gear to take a snapshot of how well the amp is working "as is".

If you see distortion issues on your scope you need to find and replace the noisy semiconductor first.

Once those parameters are established, and you have given all the switches, contacts and potentiometers a very extensive cleaning, then it makes sense to start replacing caps.
 
matt e. said:
https://www.mouser.com/new/nichicon/Nichicon-Audio-Caps/

I'm preparing an order and am trying to make sense of the different Nichicon audio grade cap series. I don't need many so price isn't an issue. My goals are to achieve the lowest THD and use something reliable. I don't want to be recapping this thing five years from now. When looking at the datasheet the life endurance spec is considerably less for the highest sound quality caps. The amp I'm working on is 50 year old Heathkit AA15 that uses those old brown pcb's that are getting brittle from age. I don't know how many times it can be recapped before the board gives out and I really didn't want to have to make new ones. Will I be happy with the UKW series? I planned on using Kemet tantalums for most of the smaller value caps on the preamp board for long term reliability.

UKZ - Best - 1000hours $.55
UFG - 2nd - 1000hours $.47
UKW - 3rd - 2000hours $.43
UKA - 4th - 1000hours (high temp) $.51
UKT - 5th - 1000hours (high temp) $.48
UFW - 6th - 2000hours $.22

edit: I think above is how they rank in sound quality according to datasheets.
Price is based on 47uF 50v comparison. The FW series is the best value. Maybe all the rest are designed to empty our wallets faster?

Matt
Click to expand...

UKZ for the audio paths, UPW or UPM for any of the power paths. And as mentioned dont use any tantalums. Replace with films.
 
ChrisMarantz said:
Matt: Your Heathkit came with general purpose capacitors that were manufactured with the process technology that was commonly available 50 years ago. Any modern capacitor from a name brand company will be better than the originals.

The amplifiers THD has more to do with it's design than the components used in it. You will likely not have much difference in the final outcome by using one type of "audio grade" part over another. - Chris
Click to expand...
I am not sure really. I rather think that those caps from 50 years ago would be hard to beat. I measure them before replacing. I was recapping 1977 boombox recently full of vintage Panasonic caps. I measured them and compared with Panasonic FM they were being replaced with. Big caps 470uF and 1000uF measured almost spot on the same ESR and leakage as the new FM. I think the physical size gives the vintage caps a lot of advantage. I am not sure if there has been technology progress in this area, maybe rather progress in cost saving and miniaturization. Certainly the vintage caps are more consistent, no matter brand (well, maybe Sanyo caps fell a bit behind, but who used them?), there were no bad caps back then like now if you buy cheap.

On the other hand nowadays you have capacitor failures after 5 years in tv power sections. When I recap an old 40+ yo amp or boombox there is usually no capacitor that I can call bad, the highest number was one bad cap excluding filter caps which always fail in pair.
 
matt e. said:
https://www.mouser.com/new/nichicon/Nichicon-Audio-Caps/

I'm preparing an order and am trying to make sense of the different Nichicon audio grade cap series. I don't need many so price isn't an issue. My goals are to achieve the lowest THD and use something reliable. I don't want to be recapping this thing five years from now. When looking at the datasheet the life endurance spec is considerably less for the highest sound quality caps. The amp I'm working on is 50 year old Heathkit AA15 that uses those old brown pcb's that are getting brittle from age. I don't know how many times it can be recapped before the board gives out and I really didn't want to have to make new ones. Will I be happy with the UKW series? I planned on using Kemet tantalums for most of the smaller value caps on the preamp board for long term reliability.

UKZ - Best - 1000hours $.55
UFG - 2nd - 1000hours $.47
UKW - 3rd - 2000hours $.43
UKA - 4th - 1000hours (high temp) $.51
UKT - 5th - 1000hours (high temp) $.48
UFW - 6th - 2000hours $.22

edit: I think above is how they rank in sound quality according to datasheets.
Price is based on 47uF 50v comparison. The FW series is the best value. Maybe all the rest are designed to empty our wallets faster?

Matt
Click to expand...
I am one of few guys that uses tantalum caps, they were considered superior back then, they have less leakage than aluminium electrolytic. I still use them replacing large vintage tantalum caps 10uf, 33uf (I would consider using aluminium electrolytic as downgrading), for smaller values nowadays I tend to use 50v/63v polyester more often, not necessary WIMA but brands like EPCOS, I buy them on ebay as they are very cheap there. But at first I always replaced tantalum for tantalum (I used Kemet) all over in some vintage amps and never had problems. I bought them from Digi/mouser, but they are quite expensive there.

I recently bought large quantity of NOS 33uf and 10uf off ebay, Kemet, Vishay, Sprague, major brands. Tantalum caps are said not to age on shelf, but I have not tested them yet.

As kind of experiment I used unbranded (so called Multicomp) tantalum caps from a major seller of components but they went bad straight away, caused crackling from speakers.

With tantalum caps the smaller the cap the more prone to failure it is. 0.47uf, 0.68uf, 1uf, 2.2uf should be replaced on sight. But now I would say with film/polyester rather than tantalum. New 0.47uf tantalum by Kemet will have around 5 ohm of ESR, why add this to your system?
 
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