Non-Transferable Warranty - A cop-out?

[HamDog]

This post is more of a gripe than anything else. Guess I'm just getting tired of manufacturers copping out and denying warranty for 2nd owners. It's my understanding that they want their customers buying from authorized dealers only. Shouldn't the manufacturers be more responsible in their own distribution process to keep the products away from un-authorized dealers? Maybe do a better job of picking their dealers and investigate sales happening at un-authorized dealers? So it's better to just punish the customer?

I believe a manufacturer should stand behind their warranty terms for as long as the warranty period hasn't ended. For any and all future owners.

Take a look at Bryston. For anything manufactured before 2006, they don't require any invoice and it doesn't need to be purchased from an authorized dealer to get warranty service. FOR 20 YEARS!!!! If a product was manufactured after 2006, then it requires an invoice showing it was purchased from an authorized dealer....BUT IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE ORIGINAL OWNER. Bravo Bryston!!! Every manufacturer who believes in their product should follow suit. Yet the biggest and most prestigious names just offer warranty to the original owner.

Is this really to keep their product distribution controlled? I think it's a lame excuse. Every manufacturer has to set a reserve in their financial statements for potential future warranty expenses. This policy helps them lower that reserve and show more profit.

A very prestigious manufacturer (which shall remain un-named) came out with a seriously flawed unit. The unit was so bad that they didn't want to sell to the public since their warranty claims would skyrocket. So even though they don't approve of online sales, they dumped all the units to one of the authorized dealers and told him to dump these on e-bay at much below regular dealer cost. Of course, e-bay sales aren't covered by manufacturers warranty. So the units were dumped and the manufacturer wouldn't be responsible for any repairs. Many customers bought the units because they trusted the manufacturer to make quality products.

Again, this is just my rant at manufacturers not standing behind their products. If I buy a new item from an authorized dealer with a 3 year warranty, there is no reason I can't sell the unit a year later with the remaining 2 years of warranty if I can provide my invoice showing this was sold through the authorized channels. Just doesn't make sense. Shame on all the manufactures who do this.

 

[HamDog]

They can do what ever they want. Also, people who have had items stolen, that warranty would transfer to the people who bought the stolen item.

When you buy on CL - it is 'As it is'.

Don't like it, don't buy it....

Why don't more manufacturers do like Bryston? If you have the original receipt, then warranty is valid to all subsequent owners.

And CL is not always "as is". Just like any other sale anywhere else, it may or may not include warranty. If you buy a car from CL which is still under warranty, the warranty still applies. And if you buy a Bryston from CL, then the warranty still applies. A CL sale does not cancel out a transferable warranty!

Stolen items? Really? So let's punish the other 99% of the people who sell legitimately?

 

[Silversleep]

Why don't more manufacturers do like Bryston? If you have the original receipt, then warranty is valid to all subsequent owners.

And CL is not always "as is". Just like any other sale anywhere else, it may or may not include warranty. If you buy a car from CL which is still under warranty, the warranty still applies. And if you buy a Bryston from CL, then the warranty still applies. A CL sale does not cancel out a transferable warranty!

Stolen items? Really? So let's punish the other 99% of the people who sell legitimately?

Good Point!:yes:

 

[tannyhoban]

Worked for a company that warrantied certain components (not electronics) in the product for life. Great in theory but not from a bottom line perspective.

With regards to your post, caveat emptor.

Buy products from companies who warranty in line with your needs, otherwise you gets what you get. It's unrealistic to expect every company to have the same philosophy.

 

[JohnVF]

I see absolutely no reason why somebody who bought something used outside of the normal distribution channels that contribute to a company's profit should be entitled to that companies continued support of a product that they bought through an unrelated 3rd party.

If they did, they'd have to charge more up front and people would just be pissed off about that and further complain about the cost of new things.

When you buy new, one of the incentives is to get a warranty. If anybody gets the warranty, even when paying 1/2 price for used, why would they EVER buy new? Just buy something broken and send it in to get something that's like new again, at great cost to the company to help you save money. It makes no economic sense. Bryston can do it..and look at how much you pay for Bryston gear.

 

[stereocuuple]

I see absolutely no reason why somebody who bought something used outside of the normal distribution channels that contribute to a company's profit should be entitled to that companies continued support of a product that they bought through an unrelated 3rd party.

If they did, they'd have to charge more up front and people would just be pissed off about that and further complain about the cost of new things.

When you buy new, one of the incentives is to get a warranty. If anybody gets the warranty, even when paying 1/2 price for used, why would they EVER buy new? Just buy something broken and send it in to get something that's like new again, at great cost to the company to help you save money. It makes no economic sense. Bryston can do it..and look at how much you pay for Bryston gear.

+1 new sales are what drive the industry.

 

[Andyman]

Bryston can do it..and look at how much you pay for Bryston gear.

Yep.

Warranties are part of the cost of the goods. People get paid to determine how many units can be expected to fail and how much the warranty cost of the goods are and that gets figured into the price.

And since the American consumer is very price elastic, it remains good business to keep your price as low as possible. Apparently the numbers show that more money will be made by selling more units w/ nontransferable warranties that either by eating the extra costs of a transferable warranty or raising the price to offer one.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Naptown Rob]

Historically, transferable warranties have ALWAYS been the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[cwall99]

When you buy new, one of the incentives is to get a warranty.

It's one reason I try to buy new, or at least buy demo units that have a manufacturer's warranty.

 

[gagelle]

Yea, I just saw an expensive power re-generator for sale, for an unbelievably low price, that was supposedly almost new. There was no mention of a warranty. I immediately thought that it was, perhaps, stolen.

A company can't afford to do free work on anything sent in to them. When you buy a Bryston, a large part of the price has their excellent warranty built in. So you're essentially paying for the warranty. I have piece of equipment from a company that does not transfer warranties from the first owner. When I bought one of their products, it was an fantastic deal for what I was getting. It is a small company that knew the first owner. He misrepresented to me that the warranty was transferable. But I later found out that he assumed it was transferable and just didn't check. I could have returned it, but it worked perfectly and sounded incredible. The company has an excellent reputation for quality, so I decided to take a chance. And half the time, the shipping costs to and from the company are the largest part of the repair bill.

Yes, Bryston is great in all aspects. But I can't afford their new units.

 

[stish]

It's one reason I try to buy new, or at least buy demo units that have a manufacturer's warranty.

+1:thmbsp:

 

[HamDog]

I see absolutely no reason why somebody who bought something used outside of the normal distribution channels that contribute to a company's profit should be entitled to that companies continued support of a product that they bought through an unrelated 3rd party.

Simple. For example, a company says we warranty our product for 3 years. This means they stand behind their product and will repair it if it breaks down. Why should they stop if it changes hands? They aren't extending an extra 3 years to the subsequent owner, they're just guaranteeing their work for the original period. You're making it sound as it's a bad thing to buy used!

Look at cars. What do you think would happen if Ford or Toyota announces tomorrow that their 3 year bumper to bumper warranty is only valid for the original owner? Their resale value would plummet. So would the price for their new cars.

If they did, they'd have to charge more up front and people would just be pissed off about that and further complain about the cost of new things.

Why should they charge more? Are they expecting that their product will suck and the original owner will get rid of it quickly??? I would say the majority of people who buy new are not flippers and they're buying to keep past the warranty expiration date. Flippers don't buy new from authorized dealers!

When you buy new, one of the incentives is to get a warranty. If anybody gets the warranty, even when paying 1/2 price for used, why would they EVER buy new? Just buy something broken and send it in to get something that's like new again, at great cost to the company to help you save money. It makes no economic sense. Bryston can do it..and look at how much you pay for Bryston gear.

Warranty does't last forever. It's for one year, 2 year, 3 years, etc. Buying an item used which is still covered under warranty sells for more than a used item without any warranty. How about cars???? Why doesn't everyone just buy a one year old used car instead of a new car?

+1 new sales are what drive the industry.

Double edged sword. The person selling usually uses the funds to buy other equipment. The more he gets, the more he'll spend. And keeping up the used value of equipment adds further value to the new price of the equipment.

Yep.

Warranties are part of the cost of the goods. People get paid to determine how many units can be expected to fail and how much the warranty cost of the goods are and that gets figured into the price.

And since the American consumer is very price elastic, it remains good business to keep your price as low as possible. Apparently the numbers show that more money will be made by selling more units w/ nontransferable warranties that either by eating the extra costs of a transferable warranty or raising the price to offer one.

Makes sense to me.

Yup, this is the big corporate movement. Private equities are buying up lots of manufacturers (Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, etc....) It's all about the numbers. Not about standing behind the equipment and the consumer.

Not everyone wants to charge the massive amounts Bryston does....

You're right, I'll stick to cheaper brands, like McIntosh, Levinson, Krell....[/sarcasm] Bryston has made the statement that their products are solid and they stand behind them 100%.

 

[blackfly]

I would like to add my point here and as someone who has bought 2 new Bryston units (a BDA 1 DAC and 14B SST) I would like to point out the warranty WAS appealing, but pointless.

I paid almost full price for both, from an authorised dealer. Full warranty. Now, the 14B has a 20 year warranty. But with ANY well designed gear, you should expect at least this. I got rid of the 14B for a pair of 27 year old Luxman class A amps and they have no warranty. But they sound better. The warranty, to me, seems like justification for charging more on, at least on the surface, legitimate grounds. I wish the amp sounded better; I would of kept it.

I don't get the addage "if it is not from authorised dealers, no warranty". Do all companies make A grade and B grade gear and sell only the A grade in authorised dealers? You would think the damage to reputation alone would be enough to prevent "lemons". Look at the newest DAC from Audio Research. Compared to the previous version, the DAC 7, the newest DAC 8 is a turd. Sounds worse; not even close. It happens.

But does this also apply to the pricing of uber-end gear like Wilson, Magico, Burmester et al?????

 

[Andyman]

Yup, this is the big corporate movement. Private equities are buying up lots of manufacturers (Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, etc....) It's all about the numbers. Not about standing behind the equipment and the consumer.

No, you miss my point completely. It's about paying for what you get. A warranty is a cost and basically buyers have opted to pay less to get items w/o the warranties.

And yes, it IS all about the numbers, always has been. I'm not sure what you do, but most of us have positions where numbers and results determine our successes or failure. Miss your numbers a few periods and see how comfortable life is.

They'll stand behind the product, for whatever they offer. If you want more, expect to pay more, but most DON'T so it is what it is...

 

[blackfly]

No, you miss my point completely. It's about paying for what you get. A warranty is a cost and basically buyers have opted to pay less to get items w/o the warranties.

And yes, it IS all about the numbers, always has been. I'm not sure what you do, but most of us have positions where numbers and results determine our successes or failure. Miss your numbers a few periods and see how comfortable life is.

They'll stand behind the product, for whatever they offer. If you want more, expect to pay more, but most DON'T so it is what it is...

Since when was the bottom line the bottom line..........

Of course companies care. If they didn't they would be broke quick.

Take one of my other hobbies: mountainbiking.

In the early 2000's you could get a TOTL frame with lifetime warranty. Then hard core riding emerged (think North Shore freeriding, where I am born and raised). Soon, after enough broken bikes, most companies now have 3 year MANUFACTURER warranties, with 5 year prorated being popular too. They work very hard to get out of any claims, however. Stall tactics, legal mumbo-jumbo, you name it.

 

[HamDog]

No, you miss my point completely. It's about paying for what you get. A warranty is a cost and basically buyers have opted to pay less to get items w/o the warranties.

I disagree. The original buyer has already paid for the warranty! The manufacturer has already agreed to stand behind the product for the next x number of years. You're not getting an option of $xxx dollars with warranty or less without it. The manufacturer has already built in the future cost of repairs. They're just backing out if you sell the product to someone else. When I purchase a new product, the warranty is an asset. Why can't I resell the asset that I have paid for (at a discounted price of course, based on how much time is remaining). This is why it's a cop-out by the manufacturer.

 

[Blue Shadow]

So, if I buy a new unit from an authorized dealer through the authorized supply chain including the manufacturer, everyone associated with providing the warranty and service have got a chunk of my money.

but if I buy a used unit from Joe, I give Joe my money and get a very nice price because the unit is used. I don't expect a warranty except in the instances where the manufacturer supplies a transferrable warranty and charged for it in the original purchase price.

As for gear bought new outside the normal distribution chain like from overseas in many instances, why would you expect to get a warranty when you bought the unit for a little bit larger discount than the company charges for the warranty alone?

I don't see how getting a warranty on a good used chunk of gear has anything to do with a transferrable warranty on a car. Completely different types of devices and by having the transferrable warranty on the vehicle, this cements the dealer-customer relationship for that brand.

I can't see getting a warranty when I never gave the manufacturer or any of their representatives any money nor would I if the unit works as expected. Completely different from a car where you want to get work done on new cars, it is frequently the dealer or nowhere.

 

[sheltie dave]

There is a large difference between a durable good, and a disposable good. Durable goods come with a warranty, some are transferable, some are not. Disposable goods, which normally include stereo gear, have a higher rate of expected failures, so they often have warranties of a shorter nature, and a very, very small number of transferable warranties.

Bryston used their twenty year warranty as a marketing ploy back in the 1970s/80s as they tried (very successfully) to break into the commercial sound reinforcement field with their higher power SS amps. There were all kinds of folks tired of the Flame Linear and Crown amps balking and quitting while being roaded hard, and something with a 20 year warranty caught everyone's attention, and many wallets.

Over the years, I have purchased vast amounts of broken gear, because of the price point and having enough knowledge of estimated repair costs to almost always stay above water. If all this gear had been under transferable warranties, most everything would be selling within $100 of new MSRP, unless covered in filth.

As cheap as almost everyone here is, there would be riots in the AK forums to void those f'ing transferable warranties pronto, to drop prices down to their accustomed point.

 

[HamDog]

So, if I buy a new unit from an authorized dealer through the authorized supply chain including the manufacturer, everyone associated with providing the warranty and service have got a chunk of my money.

You have now obtained two products: One tangible (the equipment) and one intangible (the warranty). They are both assets to you and you have paid for them. But you are only entitled to sell one of your assets, the product. The intangible asset that you paid for is taken away. How is this fair?

but if I buy a used unit from Joe, I give Joe my money and get a very nice price because the unit is used. I don't expect a warranty except in the instances where the manufacturer supplies a transferrable warranty and charged for it in the original purchase price.

And what if Joe had paid for the product which came with a 3 year warranty and is now going to sell it after one year of ownership? He is getting LESS since his intangible asset is now deemed worthless since it doesn't transfer. Joe is getting screwed! The manufacturer comes out a clear winner. Two years of remaining warranty which they have already collected is now theirs for free! They no longer have to service it if something should go wrong for the remaining two years.

As for gear bought new outside the normal distribution chain like from overseas in many instances, why would you expect to get a warranty when you bought the unit for a little bit larger discount than the company charges for the warranty alone?

I'm only talking about items that were purchased legitimately from an authorized dealer.

I don't see how getting a warranty on a good used chunk of gear has anything to do with a transferrable warranty on a car. Completely different types of devices and by having the transferrable warranty on the vehicle, this cements the dealer-customer relationship for that brand.

With all due respect, this makes no sense at all. I don't see why these are two completely different types of "devices".

I can't see getting a warranty when I never gave the manufacturer or any of their representatives any money nor would I if the unit works as expected.

You're missing the point behind "intangible assets". It has real monetary value. Even on the balance sheet! The person selling you the goods has paid for it. Why can't he sell it?

Completely different from a car where you want to get work done on new cars, it is frequently the dealer or nowhere.

I don't understand your point here. If I buy a one year old Ford, I can get it repaired at any Ford dealer in the country under factory warranty for the next 2 years (assuming a total 3 year warranty from when new). Why shouldn't this apply to audio equipment?

 

[Ths364]

Whatever you get when you buy new, you're paying for. That includes extended or transfer-able warranty. Some folks just aren't going to want to pay that extra amount and will buy something cheaper instead. AND, some folks are of the "because it has a X year warranty I'm going to run the **** out of it and they'll fix/replace it.