I haven't seen @battradio (Mark) around these parts for quite some time, I hope he's ok. Very knowledgably guy!
Orsefon C22 (McIntosh C-22 circuit copy)
- Thread starter CohibaJoe
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have heard that before. each may have their own preference. The metalized film caps have a haze over them the film and foils do not. The best sonically are the copper foil caps. More organic sounding than tin foil or any metalized film. They are usually large and quite a bit more on the expensive side. The Dueland copper foils are the best cap I have heard but are very large and pricy. The Jupiter copper foils are a close 2nd. They make great coupling caps. Same with the Miflex copper foils made in Poland. Excellent cap. All 3 are sonically superior to any plastic film cap. May be worthwhile to review the Richard Marsh series on film caps. Their studies were quite encompassing with the caps available back then.
Spec-wise there should be a difference in the sound characteristics of the brands noted. When you mention "sonically superior", I'm guessing it's to your ears, no?
Altmann
New Member
HiYa,
i have put the shematic in my LTSpice Simulator. There is only one very small mistake seen. At the Output of the Phono Section (behind 2nd OP - Amp), there is a coupling condersor of 1µF loading 1KOhm. This have to get some larger, to avoid a lower frequency cut. The values shown give about 100Hz. I suggest to put something parallel. Choose a good one, maybe Elna Silmic II. To put the "right" type of condensor in, is one thing, the other is the "right" value.
Regards Winnie.
The diagram shows the original 1µ response in green, and with additional 10µF parallel in blue.
i have put the shematic in my LTSpice Simulator. There is only one very small mistake seen. At the Output of the Phono Section (behind 2nd OP - Amp), there is a coupling condersor of 1µF loading 1KOhm. This have to get some larger, to avoid a lower frequency cut. The values shown give about 100Hz. I suggest to put something parallel. Choose a good one, maybe Elna Silmic II. To put the "right" type of condensor in, is one thing, the other is the "right" value.
Regards Winnie.
The diagram shows the original 1µ response in green, and with additional 10µF parallel in blue.
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Spec wise have not seen anyone measure a real significant difference. If you are relatively new to caps you may want to consider reading the Richard Marsh series of articles on caps and why they sound different. Back in the day it was groundbreaking work they did.
not just to mine. Anyone who has heard the copper foil caps, would tend to agree. They are more organic sounding than any plastic film cap metalized or film and foil. Some film and foil polypropylene or film and foil teflon cap can sound pretty lean. Some may call it true to source but they can be very un-natural sounding.
Having said that not sure if they would be different in the Orsefon preamp or not. The big draw back is their associated cost. In the MAC amps, the circuit design is all high feedback. In high feedback circuits spending that much on caps is moot since the feedback loop cancels out most of the benefits from copper foil.
As @Pio1980 noted some folks do prefer metalized over film foil. this may be more true with polypropylene di-electric films than with other dielectrics. Some polyprop film and foil caps can sound lean and mean after daily use for a while. A number of years ago there was a group of 8 of us that ran a series of capacitor experiments with tons of the boutique brand with all sorts of different materials. Having 8 people involved help defray the cost vs one person trying to do it all. Some of these boutique caps were not tolerable to listen to while others were quite enjoyable.
If your goal is to make the Orsefon sound more like a MAC C22, then I would consider using the re-issue bumble bee caps from Jupiter and change out the resistors for NOS carbon comp resistors. I once wrecked the sound on a C22 by changing out all the carbon comps to metal film resistors. Ended up painstakingly changing them all back.
If your goal is to get the most sonically out of the Orsefon preamp, then you can dump many more dollars into parts to get there.
It appears the new Burson V7 is not compatible in spite of being listed as a drop-in replacement for NE5532. New V7s in all positions except MC stage resulted in weak and heavily distorted output across all channels. Running with nothing installed in the MM channel or stock units brought output level up to normal, but faint distortion remained. Plenty of swapping pieces around checking installation was done. I initially thought I had a bum OpAmp. It appears this amp doesn't like the V7. Things sound great with the new cap and the stock OpAmps
Altmann
New Member
HiYa,
seams to me like some kind of oscillation. Maybe this ones are more sensitive to the layout. Anyhow, this are total different op amps, they are never compatible. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes not.
This ones are working: Nvarcher Oracle II 02 Hybrid Dual op amp replaces NE5532 MUSES02 OPA2604 AD827SQ/883B
Regards Winnie.
Burson has the V7 listed as a compatible replacement for the 5532. I think this is the cosmos telling me to stop pushing for more. That amp already sounds quite lovely with Amtrans film caps, Wurth electrolytics, and stock OpAmps. Tomorrow should be interesting. I actually ordered V6s directly from Buson on Feb 24th. I ordered the V7s on March 4th from Parts Connexion after learning they existed. I was going to return the V6s and use the V7s. However, the V6 order is supposed to arrive tomorrow.
Altmann
New Member
Yes, true. But keep in mind: compatible is not the same! It depends on the Layout. The Layout in here, is not very colse on supply terminals, and and and. Something like NOISY is often oscilattion! Try to give them back, try another one, or not. The build in 5532 in mine, have been very loud, MC input.
Regards Winnie.
V6 vivid installed and Marty Robbins' Gunfighter Ballads is currently playing with zero issues. Switching the tone circuit in the signal chain no longer produces a dramatic change in sound quality. It sounds good with or without it engaged. Prior, direct sounded rather underwhelming and much more lively and a pinch louder with tone engaged. The volume control is a minute touch less aggressive now. Quite frankly, it's an underwhelming improvement if I ignore the change when the tone controls are disengaged. However, I feel a lot less queasy knowing I don't have fourteen incompatible opamps on my hands. Hopefully I can get the V7s returned.
I have no idea why the V7s dont work. The only thing that stands out is they pull more operating current per the spec sheet.
I have no idea why the V7s dont work. The only thing that stands out is they pull more operating current per the spec sheet.
Looking good, V6 are working with no issues and with the Upgrades this Pre-Amp sound Lovely. Give the Amtrans at least 100hrs and let us know.
Just a quick heads up. Xfmr is listed as supporting 100ma for Op Amp supply current and they mean it. Newest version of this preamp has an additional Op Amp on the tone board. The stock JRC5532D pulls 9ma current. Burson V7s pull a whopping 20ma each and the V6 14ma. I have the newest version and was pulling 158ma (left stock MC JRC5532d installed) and it was unusable with V7. Swapping to V6 brought me down to 116ma in my last post. Once I started listening to FLAC files from my home server, I began to notice slight distortion. I just yanked the 5532s from the MC section and am down to 98ma. So far, I can't get it to distort and NOW I'm noticing a difference over an all stock amp. Lively is the only way I can describe it. I get what all the fuss is about now.
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I now have a couple hours now with the V6s working properly and this thing sounds incredible. It's a real treat throwing my library at it and hearing so much of everything!
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I now have a couple hours now with the V6s working properly and this thing sounds incredible. It's a real treat throwing my library at it and hearing so much of everything!
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I am having a difficulty understanding the challenge of copying a 60 year design (both electronic and exterior) to make a product that is obviously not even properly tested, then sold for nontrivial amounts of money.
Why are you supporting this ripoff? Besides the mental exercise to troubleshoot a broken product. Greed? Curiosity? Both?
Why are you supporting this ripoff? Besides the mental exercise to troubleshoot a broken product. Greed? Curiosity? Both?
I can assure you that this is no "rip-off", neither is it a broken product, it is only a hair behind the ModWright LS100 after changing the Orsefon's tubes...in fact there are 3 other Chinese amplifiers in this picture and while each one has their own virtues none of them are turds in the punch bowl....
It always fun seeing someone else who bought one of these things!
It IS a fun preamp, and mates well with the Chinese Dartzeel "clone" above the Esoteric SACD/CD player above it...playing into the first generation Elac BS51 speakers...using Chinese interconnects and speaker cables...
I'm reminded of when I was a kid in the 1950's and the term "Jap crap" was bandied about as a derogatory term for things made in Japan...within a decade, though, it was no longer crap...in fact Ham radios from Kenwood, Yaesui, and Icom pretty much drove such names as Hallicrafters, National, Swan, WRL, etc., from the market due to their quality, features, and affordability...been there, done that, got a room full of the old American gear!
I look inside at the construction of the Chinese devices and see nothing "crappy" about their attention to detail or their execution...any of the "clones" we have, the Dartzeel, the Goldmund monoblocks, the FM Acoustics, the "Pass" X-160, or the Zero Zone P-1000 high-power digital amps, are well built, affordable, and have performed flawlessly for us.
Here's the P-1000s driving Sound Labs M-1s:
Even though I really do not like feeding money to China the uniqueness of what they are turning out and the decent quality make experimentation fun.
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So why then copy decades old designs and spend time to even make it look like McIntosh gear? I understand that there is probably not much that can be invented in designing a push-pull tube amp. I have no problem buying an Elekit and do the experiments with different components myself, but buying something that is so pretentiously conceived as a lookalike (not simply a ‘clone’) is beyond bad taste.
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