P-Mounts: Do you like them?
- Thread starter tubemusic
- Start date
No it is only the P-Mount arm. Did they also have the S arm? I will have to ask my brother about that. The P-Mount works out very well. I also have a Signet P-mount cartridge with a Shibata someday hope to use.
Barney
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
The SL-M2 came with either a straight P-mount arm with a fixed headshell or an S-arm with a removable SME type headshell and a removable P-mount headshell. I don't know whether the arm wands could be plugged in but I think not. Looks like the SL-M1 was the same. With the SL-MA1, such as the one I posted, they had a removable P-mount headshell on a straight arm and also a fixed headshell straight P-mount arm.
SL-M1 S-arm
SL-M1 Straight P-mount arm
SL-M2 S-arm, removable SME type headshell
SL-M2 Straight P-mount arm, fixed headshell
SL-MA1 Straight P-mount arm, removable headshell
SL-MA1 straight P-mount arm, fixed headshell
There may be other variants but I don't know of any.
John
Last edited:
BayouTiger
Super Member
Seems the P-Mounts were popular on the linear trackers. I think my Sony PS-X800 had one.
Those Technics M series spinners are nice hefty players for sure.
Although I wouldn't mind a nice SL-1650 changer.
Till then, my Kenwood KD-66F with an AT will do, and sounds just fine.
I can even lift the needle from the groove from across the room remotely, if one of my fans calls on the telephone.
Can YOURS do that?
Although I wouldn't mind a nice SL-1650 changer.
Till then, my Kenwood KD-66F with an AT will do, and sounds just fine.
I can even lift the needle from the groove from across the room remotely, if one of my fans calls on the telephone.
Can YOURS do that?
Ok first and last warning - this is a posting from a p-mount fanboy....
1) P-mounts are mostly low end (myth)
This is complete mythology, it was originally designed and released by Technics who defined the T4P standard, and all of their initial released T4P tables and cartridges were distinctly high end....
The ease of use, and simplicity made them a logical step for all the tables intended to be sold to people who know nothing about TT's and want something that just plugs-and-plays.... so they came to dominate the low end.
At the high end there were quite a few entrants in the competition - but lots of audiophiles are geeks who like to fiddle with stuff - and the T4P standard was designed to eliminate a lot of the fuffing about.... so it never achieved the same domination in mid and high end that it achieved at the low end.
2) High quality p-mounts
First thing to keep in mind is that there are very few current manufacturers of p-mount cartridges, so we are mostly talking about vintage cartridges - for some of which styli are still available - for others you have to scrounge for NOS or use a retipper.
Current production p-mounts:
Grado - the grado p-mounts use the fitting, but do not comply with the T4P standard, the versions available in the 80's and early 90's had styli that allowed them to be T4P compliant (VTF=1.25g) whereas all the current styli run best at around 1.7g - way outside the T4P standard.
If your arm has adjustable VTF - these can be nice, can also be upgraded with the 8MZ, MCZ, TLZ styli. (which takes them well into the levels of performance provided by the Grado 1/2" woodies)
Audio Technica - the AT92 (and its relatives) are the last surviving AT p-mount, they use the same core body as the AT95, in a p-mount fitting and with styli correctly adjusted for T4P tracking requirements. They are surprisingly good and huge value for money. - can also be upgraded with aftermarket styli including HE, VL and Shibata.
Shure - M92e - the house of Shure also used to have quite a number of p-mount models, the M92e is the only surviving one, the body is electrically identical to the M97xe - and in fact you can fit the N97xE stylus to the M92e.
The N92e stylus is... disappointing, the N97xE is much much better, economical stylus options exist from Jico, and fitted with the top of the line Jico SAS stylus turns this very cheap cartridge into an economy high end contender.
Sanyo / RedEd p-mount - this is a very basic and very economical cartridge, the p-mount version suffers from the same problem as the Grado's - the styli need higher VTF than allowed for in the T4P standard - so they are OK for an adjustable arm, but not for a fixed one. only two styli available - basic conical and basic eliptical.
For those who want something more high end.... I have the following cartridges myself:
Shure V15Vp
The p-mount version of the legendary V15V family - original styli are still available new - and yes they have the ultralight beryllium tube cantilever and the MR stylus.
More economically and also at a very very high performance level - the Jico SAS stylus is available for this body.
Ortofon OMP20/30/40, 520/530/540p
Ortofon no longer make the P-mount version of the OM and 5xx families - but styli for both families are still available - they are just as good as their 1/2" relatives.... an OMP30 or 530P is a high end performer by any measure. (I have not tried the 40's...)
Ortofon MC100/200 - these were very highly regarded in the early 80's when they were considered a reference cartridge by a number of well known reviewers. very low output moving coil, with fine boron cantilever and fineline stylus. - Only option with these now is retipping, but NOS ones do continue to crop up periodically. (was also rebadged by Empire)
Audio Technica AT102 family (102/112/122/132/142/152 and sold under many alternate brands and codes eg: SLT96, TK6Ep, TK4p, Realistic RX1500)
This body is of the same family as the 1/2" AT120/440/150 which are still current - and they can take the styli from the 1/2" cousins.
Original styli are getting rare, and the 1/2" styli usually track at a higher VTF than required for T4P. - but these are every bit as good as the 1/2" cousins - an AT1x2 with an ATN150MLx stylus is definitely not to be sneezed at!! (the slightly heavier stylus of the 1/2" mount gives it the additional VTF it needs to work well in a standard T4P setting)
Good to very good styli are available aftermarket - but nothing in the top end exotic category (other than the ATN150MLx)
Technics EPCP100 and EPCP205
These legendary cartridges are considered some of the best ever made regardless of format - I have a 205, unfortunately without stylus, and the styli are now completely unobtainable, and there are no aftermarket options for the p-mount versions. (Yes the Jico SAS is available for the 1/2" version but not for the p-mount versions)
Retipping is the ONLY alternative - so don't lose those broken styli, as without that stylus/holder there is nothing to retip! (a quandary in which I find myself!)
There are many more examples - Sumiko had a legendary MC in p-mount format, which was considered better than the then available 1/2" mount exemplar... I have never seen one or heard it.
To get the best from p-mount sort of requires digging into the vintage cartridges.... best (easy) options are the AT1x2 family, Shure M92 with SAS, and the Ortofon OMP's - readily easily found on ebay/craigslist etc... and with new styli of good quality readily available.
bye for now
David
1) P-mounts are mostly low end (myth)
This is complete mythology, it was originally designed and released by Technics who defined the T4P standard, and all of their initial released T4P tables and cartridges were distinctly high end....
The ease of use, and simplicity made them a logical step for all the tables intended to be sold to people who know nothing about TT's and want something that just plugs-and-plays.... so they came to dominate the low end.
At the high end there were quite a few entrants in the competition - but lots of audiophiles are geeks who like to fiddle with stuff - and the T4P standard was designed to eliminate a lot of the fuffing about.... so it never achieved the same domination in mid and high end that it achieved at the low end.
2) High quality p-mounts
First thing to keep in mind is that there are very few current manufacturers of p-mount cartridges, so we are mostly talking about vintage cartridges - for some of which styli are still available - for others you have to scrounge for NOS or use a retipper.
Current production p-mounts:
Grado - the grado p-mounts use the fitting, but do not comply with the T4P standard, the versions available in the 80's and early 90's had styli that allowed them to be T4P compliant (VTF=1.25g) whereas all the current styli run best at around 1.7g - way outside the T4P standard.
If your arm has adjustable VTF - these can be nice, can also be upgraded with the 8MZ, MCZ, TLZ styli. (which takes them well into the levels of performance provided by the Grado 1/2" woodies)
Audio Technica - the AT92 (and its relatives) are the last surviving AT p-mount, they use the same core body as the AT95, in a p-mount fitting and with styli correctly adjusted for T4P tracking requirements. They are surprisingly good and huge value for money. - can also be upgraded with aftermarket styli including HE, VL and Shibata.
Shure - M92e - the house of Shure also used to have quite a number of p-mount models, the M92e is the only surviving one, the body is electrically identical to the M97xe - and in fact you can fit the N97xE stylus to the M92e.
The N92e stylus is... disappointing, the N97xE is much much better, economical stylus options exist from Jico, and fitted with the top of the line Jico SAS stylus turns this very cheap cartridge into an economy high end contender.
Sanyo / RedEd p-mount - this is a very basic and very economical cartridge, the p-mount version suffers from the same problem as the Grado's - the styli need higher VTF than allowed for in the T4P standard - so they are OK for an adjustable arm, but not for a fixed one. only two styli available - basic conical and basic eliptical.
For those who want something more high end.... I have the following cartridges myself:
Shure V15Vp
The p-mount version of the legendary V15V family - original styli are still available new - and yes they have the ultralight beryllium tube cantilever and the MR stylus.
More economically and also at a very very high performance level - the Jico SAS stylus is available for this body.
Ortofon OMP20/30/40, 520/530/540p
Ortofon no longer make the P-mount version of the OM and 5xx families - but styli for both families are still available - they are just as good as their 1/2" relatives.... an OMP30 or 530P is a high end performer by any measure. (I have not tried the 40's...)
Ortofon MC100/200 - these were very highly regarded in the early 80's when they were considered a reference cartridge by a number of well known reviewers. very low output moving coil, with fine boron cantilever and fineline stylus. - Only option with these now is retipping, but NOS ones do continue to crop up periodically. (was also rebadged by Empire)
Audio Technica AT102 family (102/112/122/132/142/152 and sold under many alternate brands and codes eg: SLT96, TK6Ep, TK4p, Realistic RX1500)
This body is of the same family as the 1/2" AT120/440/150 which are still current - and they can take the styli from the 1/2" cousins.
Original styli are getting rare, and the 1/2" styli usually track at a higher VTF than required for T4P. - but these are every bit as good as the 1/2" cousins - an AT1x2 with an ATN150MLx stylus is definitely not to be sneezed at!! (the slightly heavier stylus of the 1/2" mount gives it the additional VTF it needs to work well in a standard T4P setting)
Good to very good styli are available aftermarket - but nothing in the top end exotic category (other than the ATN150MLx)
Technics EPCP100 and EPCP205
These legendary cartridges are considered some of the best ever made regardless of format - I have a 205, unfortunately without stylus, and the styli are now completely unobtainable, and there are no aftermarket options for the p-mount versions. (Yes the Jico SAS is available for the 1/2" version but not for the p-mount versions)
Retipping is the ONLY alternative - so don't lose those broken styli, as without that stylus/holder there is nothing to retip! (a quandary in which I find myself!)
There are many more examples - Sumiko had a legendary MC in p-mount format, which was considered better than the then available 1/2" mount exemplar... I have never seen one or heard it.
To get the best from p-mount sort of requires digging into the vintage cartridges.... best (easy) options are the AT1x2 family, Shure M92 with SAS, and the Ortofon OMP's - readily easily found on ebay/craigslist etc... and with new styli of good quality readily available.
bye for now
David
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
After a long (25 year!) neglect of this hobby, I bought an Ortofon X1-MCP as the first upgrade for a BOTL early 80s Technics table with a MOTL Audio Technica MM cart.
Nice cartridge, nice upgrade. But that table/arm had the worst response to scratching the headshell (the little box, in this case) with a fingernail that I've ever heard. I figured the P-mount and tonearm just weren't making a solid, rigid interface, and eventually went for a better table. I'm sure higher-end P-mounts paid more attention to this aspect; four pins and a single screw didn't seem to be good enough on mine.
Nice cartridge, nice upgrade. But that table/arm had the worst response to scratching the headshell (the little box, in this case) with a fingernail that I've ever heard. I figured the P-mount and tonearm just weren't making a solid, rigid interface, and eventually went for a better table. I'm sure higher-end P-mounts paid more attention to this aspect; four pins and a single screw didn't seem to be good enough on mine.
SA-708
Appalachian-American
Some of the p-mount cartridges adapted from 1/2 inch designs are not that great. I've not been that impressed by the Grado p-mounts, for instance. Some of the others made for very nice p-mount cartridges. I suspect that it took both an original 1/2 inch design that was suitable, and a proper job of engineering the changes. The Shure V15LT (adapted from the V15IV) and Pickering TL series (adapted from the Pickering XV-15/Stanton 680) are both examples that to my ears were done right.
That said, the two p-mounts I am currently running, the low output moving coil Technics 310MC and the induced magnet ADS PSX-40, were not adapted from other designs. They are also both excellent cartridges, without having to qualify them as excellent p-mount cartridges.
I've been on the less-well-travelled road of collecting p-mount cartridges (I've got around 50 of them now) and trying them out on two of the better p-mount turntables. I know that this path isn't for everyone, but I have enjoyed the ride myself.
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
Do you happen to know whether the generator on the PSX-10 through 40 is the same? I have a PSX-10 with a busted stylus and would like to know whether this is a worthy addition to my permanent P-mount collection (which itself is waiting for me to pick up a worthy P-mount table.
)John
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
The SL-QD33 was the one with the knurled knob, really a bolt that secured the counterweight in the socket at the rear of the tonearm. Simple but effective. The SL-Q30 (and SL-D30, SL-Q20 and SL-D20) had a very slick little calibrated counterweight (and also anti-skate).
John
rnorton
Super Member
Tell that to my OMP-30.
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
I think he was talking about the tables, not the cartridges and, for the most part, he's right. As Dlaloum observed, the "plug and play" nature of T4P tables made them ideal for entry level, well, crap so most P-mount tables were "kinda entry-level". As I and others have noted, however, there were some really good T4P tables made (and really good cartridges to match) but the majority were less than great.
John
boreas
"If it sounds good, it IS good." E.K.E.
SA-708
Appalachian-American
The cartridge body colour does vary. The 10 & 20 (I & II) are silver-tone, and the 30 & 40 (III & IV) are gold-tone, if memory serves.
I bought a pair of NOS 40 stylii a couple of years ago, from lpgear I think. The metal bar has come unglued out of the one I'm using, so I avoid removing the stylus on that one. It can be put back together, but takes some sork.