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Phase Linear 400

calman46

AK Subscriber
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While I'm waiting for the output tubes for my Fisher 500-b I decided to do some research on the PL400 amp that I have . I didn't know enough when I bought it so I figured I would wait. I still don't know enough but that's why there is AK . I bought the amp untested with the 2000II preamp about 5 years ago. The two 5amp fuses were handed to me in pieces when I arrived to pick it up. They didn't appear to have blown,just fallen apart so the amp was not turn on.
I'm reading all the threads on AK .The amps seem like they can be a little "finicky" so I'm on fact finding mission . I like d3Imlay's DC protection mod . There is a output transistor kit on ebay but seems a bit pricy ,any comments ?
Where to begin, get service material(got it ) and open it up and do a visual ,replace the fuses and do some resistance checking , diode check output transistors. I have a DLT ,variac,scope ,PE's dummy loads. Its that first power up ,when is it safe? DLT with 100w ? Pictures to follow . Thanks
 
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While I'm waiting for the output tubes for my Fisher 500-b I decided to do some research on the PL400 amp that I have . I didn't know enough when I bought it so I figured I would wait. I still don't know enough but that's why there is AK . I bought the amp untested with the 2000II preamp about 5 years ago. The two 5amp fuses were handed to me in pieces when I arrived to pick it up. They didn't appear to have blown,just fallen apart so the amp was not turn on.
I'm reading all the threads on AK .The amps seem like they can be a little "finicky" so I'm on fact finding mission . I like d3Imlay's DC protection mod . There is a output transistor kit on ebay but seems a bit pricy ,any comments ?
Where to begin, get service material(got it ) and open it up and do a visual ,replace the fuses and do some resistance checking , diode check output transistors. I have a DLT ,variac,scope ,PE's dummy loads. Its that first power up ,when is it safe? DLT with 100w ? Pictures to follow . Thanks

From what little electrical knowledge I know I would replace the fuse and use your DLT and put a lower wattage bulb in maybe a 30 watt bulb and plug it in and see if the light dims down after power up. Then I would check the speaker terminals for DC voltage, mine were less than 14 mv. If both channels DC is low like less than 20 mv I would hook up some speakers, junk ones, and give it a try.
 
I use a 100W bulb. You must not have any load on the output. As the power supply caps charge up the output voltage of the amp will go to some DC value. Once the caps charge up enough to allow the front end differential amps to work, the DC offset will drop to normal. If there is a load on the amp then the bulb gets bright and AC voltage only goes to about 20 VAC. If there is a short in the output, the bulb get very bright and AC input voltage is about 3 volts. That means the DLT did it's job.

If the amp comes up ok the ac input voltage will be about 90 VAC. This is dependent on the bias. If the bias is backed down to minimum then the AC input voltage will be around 100-105.

I'm not a supporter of the "replace everything on the driver board" mentality. I do have experience that supports changing all of the outputs if one fails. The troubleshooting section in the service manual is quite good. I posted all the most common P/L manuals on the AK digital docs page.
 
I am a big supporter of changing/ replacment of everything on the output board and installing the upgrade output DC sensing shutdown kit before you ever hook this amp up to any speakers that you care about. I have had 3 of these PL 400 and 1 PL 500 amps in the past, all were checked out by the so called audio tech experts before I hooked them up and each played great for 6/8months before it failed. The MO of failure was exactly the same each time, each failure was the result of a failed output device and DC was sent into the spkrs directly off of the rail. End result was a pair of tolally destroyed expensive spkrs and a long face on my part each time. Any brand of gear can fail at any time, that being said I have never heard a worse sound in my life than what is made when one of these things goes south on you. If you are going to use this amp, make the req'd corrections first and then sit back enjoy it.!!!
 
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I'm going to recap it first . I haven't look for the big cans yet so if you have any replacement part numbers . Check this article out ,especailly the BRINGING IT UP section
http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Cr...near PL400-700-Dual 500 Repair Procedures.txt

I beleive white oak has some aftermarket pc boards which converts the two big main caps to four main caps which total more than the orginal capatitors values of the orginal ones. They also have aftermarket driver boards, and dimlay the poster before me has some speaker relay kits to protect any speakers from future damage if anything goes south. If you don't get the relay kits at the very least fuse your speaker with some low amp quick blow fuses, I had one fail and it started to make a terrible sound and then silence, blew both speakers fuses, but didn't do any damage to any of the drivers, just had to replace the fuses.
 
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... Check this article out ,especailly the BRINGING IT UP section
http://www.pa-anlagen.ch/Manuals/Cr...near PL400-700-Dual 500 Repair Procedures.txt

I cringe every time I see a reference to this article. I'll give the guy credit in that he put a lot of effort into it. I don't agree with everything he says. It's the internet and everyone has an opinion.

When it comes to silpads I never reuse them, and I've never had one fail. If you install the output screws with a screw gun and the clutch backed off you will have trouble. Last year I bought about a 100,000 silpads at a surplus shop. I'm set for the long haul.

I am a big supporter of changing/ replacement of everything on the output board...

In your experience, did the technician who checked out the amps do it per the procedure in the manual? You can't check bias and offset and say it's good. Were the outputs a mixed bag of generic replacements and date codes?

As previously stated I do support changing all of the outputs because I've had my own 400 go down while idling after I repaired it and reused the "good" outputs. I don't like changing the transistors and diodes on the board unless they have shown that they have failed. If you start off by replacing everything and still have trouble you don't know if it is an original problem or induced with the replacement parts. If I'm charging to repair an amp I want to be able to show the customer what failed.

I start by removing any shorted outputs and leave the rest in the amp for the time being. You can do this with careful resistance readings before removal of any of them. Then I bring up the amp with the 100W light bulb and no load. The bulb has never failed me. If the amp comes up then I see if it will pass a signal. If it does then I know the board is probably ok. If it doesn't then you troubleshoot from there. Then I do the upgrades.

I've recently began replacing the bias transistor with a (larger) TO220 package just because I've seen the leads break on 2N3403's.

When I'm finished with an amp and I'm sure it's in good shape I take a hair dryer and blow a little bit of heat over the bias transistor while watching the bias voltage. the bias should drop and return to normal when the heat is removed. This checks the thermal stability of the amp. I also take temps of the case of each output when it's very warm to make sure there is a good thermal transfer to the heatsink.

...If you don't get the relay kits at the very least fuse your speaker with some low amp quick blow fuses, I had one fail and it started to make a terrible sound and then silence, blew both speakers fuses, but didn't do any damage to any of the drivers, just had to replace the fuses.

It's very hard to find a fuse that is fast enough and doesn't produce nuisance blown fuses. If you look at the time/current curves for an AGC fuse you see they take a relatively long time to open. To me 200 milliseconds of 100VDC on a speaker is way too long. The relay boards are a lot faster. Another possible issue is the effect the fuse can have due to it's changing resistance with signal level. And then you have to figure out a way to safely mount the fuses.

Finally, many thanks to all of you who for the kind comments on the relay boards I designed. It's much appreciated.
 
As stated in the above post fusing to protect aginst DC output is useless. Much to slow reacting!!! I had inline fuses installed during each failure and i could have reused the fuses after each event. The relay retro kit is the safe way to go and worth it . I dont bad mouth PL as they are good amps when all is well with them. You just have to be prepared for the failure event when it happens and protect your other gear (speakers)!!!
 
I guess I was lucky as it blew every fuse on my Phase Linear III's and when I replaced them everything was ok no problems with any drivers. Most every pair of speaker I own other than a pair of Sansui SP L700's has fuses on them from the factory. But to be sure, I hate having to relay on them!
 
Relays ordered from Don and caps from White Oak , I went with the larger value. Back to the article(see link in earlier post) the author suggests the removal of Q8 & Q9 which current limiters and cause 80% of failures in amp. Its in the Modifications part. What do you guys think about this mod?
 
I don't know WHY they sold a "Downgraded" version of the 700...Anybody who'd bought a 400 could easily handle/afford a 700...Just my 2 cents worth...
 
I don't know WHY they sold a "Downgraded" version of the 700...Anybody who'd bought a 400 could easily handle/afford a 700...Just my 2 cents worth...

Just like every other manufactor, they sold different amps for different needs, requirements, and budgets. When these amps came out, the 700 was probably one of the more powerful amps out, not everyone needed 350 watts per channel, so if you didn't need the power and 200 watts was plenty no need to really spend the extra money, and back then the prices for these were not cheap. Plust thats 200 watts at 8 ohms, I think at 4 ohms your looking at somewhere closer to 350 watts per channel. Save the money if you don't need the extra power and put it towards a preamp, turntable, speakers, or music, thats maybe one reason.
 
...Back to the article(see link in earlier post) the author suggests the removal of Q8 & Q9 which current limiters and cause 80% of failures in amp.

This is one of the topics in the article that I'm not in agreement with. In a PA application with long cables I understand the capacitance in the cables can cause some instability and possibly the condition that is referred to. I've not seen this happen before. When I work on one of these amps I test the circuit by shorting the amp out as it calls out in the manual. The only time I've had trouble is when I missed something in the repair. I have seen a number of amps where the parts of this circuit were heat stressed but I never knew how the amp was treated.

Q8 & Q9 are germanium devices which are very hard to find these days. The Series II amps used a revised circuit with readily available silicon transistors. Virtually every bipolar amplifier built in this era had a version of the same circuit.

Here's what I believe:

  1. Bob Carver holds a patent on the circuit. That doesn't mean its failure proof but there's a lot of data in the patent to suggest that it was fairly well tested
  2. I'm not in the same league as Bob Carver and I'm not about to second guess the design
  3. Phase Linear built more amplifiers in a week then I've seen in a lifetime. They have shown with their service bulletins that when there was a known problem they addressed it as anybody who intended to be in business for a while would do.

My experience with these amplifiers in PA's is that fans blowing on them keep them running. I've seen racks of these amps run every night in hot smokey clubs without failure as long as the fans were running. The current limit circuit was never defeated. During my college days I had a 400 without a fan pounding away on JBL 4311B's and never had a speaker or amplifier failure.

Just like every other manufacturer, they sold different amps for different needs, requirements, and budgets...

With a half dozen 400's a lot of bands rocked out in a pretty decent PA in small to midsize clubs. I only saw one rack of 700's. Note that these amps were never intended for PA use but due to cost considerations a lot of 400's ended up there.
 
As stated in the above post fusing to protect aginst DC output is useless. Much to slow reacting!!! I had inline fuses installed during each failure and i could have reused the fuses after each event. The relay retro kit is the safe way to go and worth it . I dont bad mouth PL as they are good amps when all is well with them. You just have to be prepared for the failure event when it happens and protect your other gear (speakers)!!!



What size fuse did you use? Slow blo or fast?
 
I just noticed that this 400 has the 400II heat sinks . The power transformer has 400 as a model number,the serial # 10919. Anybody ever see this ?
 
How about you post a pic?? Joe at White Oak has spice modeled the 400 and one mod YOU SHOULD do is make C6 a 470 uf at 35 or 50 volt Nichicon Muse. This extends and flattens the low frequency response to almost flat down to 5 hz. The next thing is the PL's propensity to latch up to the positive rail on power up after the front diffs had aged a little along with some cap tolerance issues. The cure to this is 2-1N4148 , back to back, polarities reversed and soldetred to the foil side of the board on the leads of C6.
Don's boards have been tested as thoroughly as one CAN BE. I have had real world output shorts on my severly modded K-Horns with some 700's putting out over 500 a channel with no damage whatsoever. Don's boards are the real thing, VERY EFFECTIVE, SONICALLY TRANSPARENT, and even when hit with a god-knows-how-many-watts square(a 700 on test got hit with a 13.27 volt inputted square wave) the board was destroyed, but did it's job before it gave up the ghost.
Had another output go with almost 400 continuous going to the horns and they walked away unscathed. Don's is the only board I will have between Pl watts and my horns.
Guys, the PL's (especially with the new White Oak board) present a very good watt/dollar value, and they are VERY CLEAN watts.
Last night I had finished putting a White Oak board in Don's 400 Ser II and the SNR was in the low 90's, crosstalk in the low 90's, DEAD QUIET with no input. All measurements were taken with my newly acquired Audio Precision ATS-1DD. Test parameters are to lenghtly to list but I would provide them by e-mail if anyone is interested.

Don-- ya got a mighty fine sounding Ser II comin back at ya. I think you'll be impressed, I am.
 
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