Pickering XV-15

[Sansui Louie]

So what was the deal...the relationship...between Pickering and Stanton?

 

[flavio81]

So what was the deal...the relationship...between Pickering and Stanton?

They're the same company, founded by two guys, Norman Pickering and Walter (?) Stanton. They made pretty good pickups. In all honesty, i haven't found any Pickering/Stanton pickup that i didn't like.

 

[flavio81]

The PD07T and PD07C are for the Pickering NP/AC and NP/AT cartridges, which are versions of their V15 cartridge, not the XV-15. Different cartridge. The V15 is an earlier design, and is the Pickering version of Stanton’s 400 and 500 cartridges.

The PDO7-C is a 0.7mil conical stylus and has a tracking weight of 3-7g, while the PD07-T is also a 0.7mil conical, with a tracking weight of 2-5g.

This!

D= Diamond (as opposed to Sapphire)

C= Intended for record __C___hangers, 3 to 7g VTF (i've found 3g works OK if the arm is good)
T= Au__T__omatic turntables, 2 to 5g VTF
M= __M__anual turntables, 1 to 2g if i recall correctly.

7= 0.7 mil conical

 

[Sansui Louie]

They're the same company, founded by two guys, Norman Pickering and Walter (?) Stanton. They made pretty good pickups. In all honesty, i haven't found any Pickering/Stanton pickup that i didn't like.

Huh. All this time and I knew there was *some* connection, but never knew what it was. Thanks.

 

[Sam Cogley]

They're the same company, founded by two guys, Norman Pickering and Walter (?) Stanton. They made pretty good pickups. In all honesty, i haven't found any Pickering/Stanton pickup that i didn't like.

If memory serves, they started as separate companies but Stanton bought Pickering sometime in the early 1950s. With a few exceptions, Stanton and Pickering carts are the same with interchangeable styli despite the very different looking plastic bits and brushes - the trick is figuring out the interchanging model numbers. Off the top of my head, I know that the V-15 and 500 series are interchangeable, the XV-15 and 68x series are the same, and I think the XSV-3000 came out first, the 881s was a tweaked version of it, and then the XSV-3000 was brought up to matching specs.

 

[Sansui Louie]

It's funny, I'm sure this was common knowledge in audio circles in the 1970's, but I don't remember ever seeing it in print in any of the old reviews I read as a kid. I just remember thinking, "What's the deal with those Stantons and Pickerings looking so much alike?"

 

[sKiZo]

You need to be very careful about buying them from either Jico or LPGear, not because they don’t sell good styli, but with the Pickering models, they get confused between Pickering’s XSV/XUV series, which are moving magnet cartridges, and their XV-15 models, which are moving iron models. I suspect the reason LPGear have it wrong is that they’ve copied Jico – or maybe it’s the other way around!

Glad I checked. The whole moving iron thing does kind of do a bank shot off the "normal" wall, don't it? I'm not all that concerned about HOW it works, just that it does. Very nicely, in fact.

Sounds like my best bet then would be to go with my initial plan to get an original OEM Pickering stylus. Only one I can find is the 625E, which isn't a bad thing. I'll go ahead and order that.

MM styli won’t work properly in your MI cartridge

So ... reading between the lines ... the MM stylus WILL work in the XV-15, but not as well?

Makes me wonder about those who say they get good results with the aftermarket styli. Either they got real lucky, or they never heard the original?

 

[ETI_5000]

Glad I checked. The whole moving iron thing does kind of do a bank shot off the "normal" wall, don't it? I'm not all that concerned about HOW it works, just that it does. Very nicely, in fact.

Sounds like my best bet then would be to go with my initial plan to get an original OEM Pickering stylus. Only one I can find is the 625E, which isn't a bad thing. I'll go ahead and order that.

Well, it will be OK to buy from Jico or LPGear as long as the stylus numbers correspond with the genuine Pickering XV-15 stylus numbers - that is, D100, D140, D150, D200, D350, D400, D625, D750, D1200 and D1800. Any other numbers are for non-XV-15 cartridges, but because of Jico's (and LPGear's) confusion, when you check what they say the stylus (for instance, the D3000, which is for the XSV-3000, a MM model) fit, they think they will fit the XV-15! I'm not sure if they will even fit the body, but they may.

So ... reading between the lines ... the MM stylus WILL work in the XV-15, but not as well?

Makes me wonder about those who say they get good results with the aftermarket styli. Either they got real lucky, or they never heard the original?

While they may fit, the fact that the D3000 stylus (or other MM model styli) has a magnet in it, and the genuine XV-15 cartridge styli have bits of iron in them, mean they either won't work, or will sound very strange. And fitting the XV-15 styli in the MM bodies definitely won't work, as they won't have a magnet! But if the people who ordered styli ordered the correct XV-15 ones from the Jico catalogue, including better models (eg D1200 or D1800) then chances are good that they willl be OK.

 

[empirelvr]

It's funny, I'm sure this was common knowledge in audio circles in the 1970's, but I don't remember ever seeing it in print in any of the old reviews I read as a kid. I just remember thinking, "What's the deal with those Stantons and Pickerings looking so much alike?"

It was more of an "open secret" than something that was talked about very candidly. Pickering was aimed squarely at the consumer sector while Stanton targeted professional users (radio stations, recording studios etc.) and audiophiles.

The overlap in the consumer side wasn't really competition with itself since Stanton had a "snob" factor that Pickering didn't have. (ie: professional endorsements, individually calibrated models, fancier packaging etc.)

They had a point, since I knew a number of audiophiles and pros who had no use for Pickering, yet loved Stanton. Even when it was pointed out that they were one and the same company with identical models, just different model numbers and styling they wouldn't budge. Image, as always, had a big bearing on things.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Here's a little bit of history. Pickering was first founded in 1946 by Norman Pickering, noted violinist, instrument designer, and medical equipment designer. His factory manager was none other than Walter Stanton, who later went out on his own. By 1960, Mr. Stanton bought out Mr. Pickering.

 

[Stanton681EEES]

I'm old enough to remember the days when if you said you owned a Stanton 681EEE some audiophiles as well as audio shops would either laugh at you or would give you that look like your kidding rite and then walk away. Boy were they wrong as a lot of them found out later on

 

[empirelvr]

In many ways Pickering/Stanton's image suffered from a "damned if you did, damned if you didn't" attitude from the public. Some have speculated a lot of it came from how Walter Stanton insisted the marketing be done and perhaps there's truth to that. There was a lot of innovation the company pioneered that just wasn't publicized or shrouded in deflection.

 

[sKiZo]

Well, it will be OK to buy from Jico or LPGear as long as the stylus numbers correspond with the genuine Pickering XV-15 stylus numbers.

Makes sense. That would also explain the earlier confusion (on my part anyway) about how the aftermarkets perform in this cartridge.

OK then ... given a choice based on what I've gleaned here ... :scratch2: ... OEM Pickering 625E (which seems to be the only one still available unless you get a package including a cartridge) OR the LPGear D1200. Both about the same price, and if I'm gonna go aftermarket, might as well go for the gold, right?

LPGear doesn't say who makes their D1200, but I see the description lists it as a "ViVid Line" stylus ... which I do believe is JICO? From what I read, only step up from that would be one of their SAS numbers, and they don't make those specifically for the XV-15 that I can find. Also, I <think> a line diamond is the NEW! Improved? equivalent of a shibata and should track quad? Be nice if they'd list it as such and take the suspense out of it. Or just say, no dummy, it's NOT a shibata ... now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!!

PS - don't believe I mentioned what happened to the old stylus. Whatever Pickering used to seat the cantilever turned to goo ... big surprise when it slid up the stalk and the cartridge body started skating across the vinyl. Happens a lot? Or is it just me?

 

[Doug G.]

I'm old enough to remember the days when if you said you owned a Stanton 681EEE some audiophiles as well as audio shops would either laugh at you or would give you that look like your kidding rite and then walk away. Boy were they wrong as a lot of them found out later on

John, I remember that very well too and it was/is all because of the the BS in the audio world.

Doug

 

[Sam Cogley]

LPGear doesn't say who makes their D1200, but I see the description lists it as a "ViVid Line" stylus ... which I do believe is JICO? From what I read, only step up from that would be one of their SAS numbers, and they don't make those specifically for the XV-15 that I can find.

I'm going to come across as a jerk here, but there is something about the last few XV-15 threads that really bothers me...what the heck is the obsession with buying a stylus that looks just like the original? The Pickering XV-15 and Stanton 68x are the same thing outside of the plastic and the brush - which are functionally equivalent? They're completely interchangeable. Just buy the best thing available at the price you want to pay - which is probably going to be a "Stanton" replacement.

If anyone doesn't believe me, I'll be happy to stick a Stanton 681 stylus on my XV-15 and vice-versa, then record the results. :sigh:

 

[boreas]

If anyone doesn't believe me, I'll be happy to stick a Stanton 681 stylus on my XV-15 and vice-versa, then record the results. :sigh:

I think that's pretty well understood around here. Also, I don't really see any reluctance here to mix and match Pickering and Stanton bits but maybe I just missed it. I'm certainly not afraid to. I've got a Stanton 680EE with a Pickering D625E stylus, a Stanton 681EE with a Pickering D1200E stylus and a Pickering P/ATE with a Stanton D5107AL in it.

John

 

[Hifirob2]

I mix and match my XV-15 and 681EEE carts with all my Pickering and Stanton styli designed for them all the time, and my ears are happy.

 

[ETI_5000]

OK then ... given a choice based on what I've gleaned here ... :scratch2: ... OEM Pickering 625E (which seems to be the only one still available unless you get a package including a cartridge) OR the LPGear D1200. Both about the same price, and if I'm gonna go aftermarket, might as well go for the gold, right?

LPGear doesn't say who makes their D1200, but I see the description lists it as a "ViVid Line" stylus ... which I do believe is JICO? From what I read, only step up from that would be one of their SAS numbers, and they don't make those specifically for the XV-15 that I can find. Also, I <think> a line diamond is the NEW! Improved? equivalent of a shibata and should track quad? Be nice if they'd list it as such and take the suspense out of it. Or just say, no dummy, it's NOT a shibata ... now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!!

PS - don't believe I mentioned what happened to the old stylus. Whatever Pickering used to seat the cantilever turned to goo ... big surprise when it slid up the stalk and the cartridge body started skating across the vinyl. Happens a lot? Or is it just me?

I think they probably just use some kind of rubber material to damp and hold the cantilever in place in the stylus housing. Unfortunately it deteriorates over time – Shure say it’s the ozone in air that causes a problem – and either turns into goo, or hardens and cracks. There’s not much you can do about it, and all brands will suffer from it, although in most cases it is usually just hardening. The fact that yours became soft may be due to some chemicals it came in contact with, such as stylus or record cleaners

I’m not sure it is Jico who produce the Vivid Line styli – they don’t make any mention of it on their website – it’s probably another Japanese manufacturer’s type of line contact stylus. It’s probably similar to a Shibata, as LPGear seem to have replaced their previous Shibata replacements (which were more expensive, and probably were Jico-made, as they all increased in price when Jico put their prices up) with cheaper Vivid Line replacements. They are probably quite similar in quality. Japan (like Switzerland) have many expert stylus cutters developed from their expertise making watch jewels – Namiki, Nagaoka and Ogura all started out in the watch jewel industry, so probably more exist.

Vivid Line is probably just one manufacturer’s brand name, as Shibata is a Namiki (and JVC) brand name. Virtually all line contact styli should be OK for quadraphonic, I think – line contact is just a general term to encompass all of them, from Stereohedron, Shibata, hyperelliptical, Vivid Line, Pramanik and Van den Hul to Fritz Gyger, microridge, microline and SAS. It just reflects that the contact line (up the groove wall) is longer than elliptical or conical styli.

I’d go for the aftermarket D1200, purely because it is a better shape (thinner) than the original D625, and should sound better. However, as the others have said, you aren’t limited to Pickering XV-15 replacements – all of the Stanton 680/681 styli will also fit. One of the 680EE or 681EEE replacements will be a good quality replacement, including any genuine Stanton 681EEE styli, if they are still available.

 

[flavio81]

Just installed a D750E stylus on a 80's Stanton 681 body yesterday. Nice sound, my ears like it. Balance seems neutral with a touch of treble sparkle.

 

[beatcomber]

My best guess is the ViVid Line is a custom-ordered hyperelliptical made by JICO for LPGear. I have one and it is fine. It also has the tell-tale blue dot on the cantilever that identifies it as a JICO.