• Please note that Audiokarma will be offline briefly for updates early on Monday morning, September 28th.

Pioneer Fluoroscan Repairable?

New displays could be developed in any type desired. However, the first 50 would be free, but the NRE (non-recurrent engineering and production setup, supply chain establishment & contracting, test design verification, etc.) would cost at least 10K. Then, the existing display drive would have to be redesigned for the new display, unless it is identical to the original.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Okay, so would you agree a $300 per unit would be fair? If so, that's 33 meters sold to recoupe the cost of production. So you're saying what I was saying, you would have to make one for the popular worth while to fix units, the SA-7800 amp, SA-8800, SA-9800, then the CT-F950 and CT-F1250, and the RT-909. So that's six designs as the amps have different wattage numbers on them. So you are saying $10K per design or $10K invested? For if it's just $10K, and if it would be profitable to be the only sole supplier of replacement VFD's, then it could be profitable form that point forward. Imagining in China or Japan they would be made cost effectively after the initial cost, one could have them do a production run of say 100 units each and sell them for a profit online to guys that do the work on these old units bringing them back to life. There has to be thousands of these all over the world that have displays no longer working. If the gas inside does not leak out, then I'm guessing they just go bad after a long time. In that case, people that still have these that want to resurrect them from the dead would have one supplier who could pretty much charge whatever they want for them by that time. Problem is, would Pioneer sue for using the design or would the patent fall into play whereby it's now expired?

If I knew there was some serious return on the investment, $10K would be nothing to get a return over time when 33 of them would be $10K bucks! I imagine there is a higher demand than 33 in the world. Has to be at least several hundred needed. If that's the case, could be quite beneficial. IMHO

I have a feeling the company that did these could be found if not divulged by Pioneer themselves as they said to me in the late 1980's to early 90's that "there were no tape heads, no pinch rollers, and no motors left" and after my persistence on the phone calling Pioneer demanding to speak to someone that was still working there for about 10 to 15 years i.e., someone for example that I said had started there in the parts department and had moved up to say manager or a department head, they finally got back to me with someone that in fact had been there about 15 years did contact me. A lady spoke to me on the phone. I explained that I have been in my local car dealer or parts store and seen old boxes on the shelf with dust on them and 1950's looking typefaces and designs on the boxes from yesteryear and low and behold, there are parts in that box that everyone in the store has no idea whats in that box and if only one person looks up the part number, they could find out what it is and if someone is looking for it, make their day! So that's exactly what she did. She told me it may take her several weeks to look up their old number and then look all over everywhere in Pioneer corporation's parts inventory and find them if they even could and she would get back to me. She called me three weeks later and said, "Shawn, I found you your parts!" I was floored! She said she found three new tape heads left in their original packages, no erase head, two pinch rollers new, and two brand new Nidec capstan motors in their boxes. She wanted $700 for them. I told her the unit new was $1,000 and that it would be like me paying for the entire unit all over again. I pointed out how I was a faithful Pioneer customer, I pointed out that I had bought an entire rack, went through all of the model numbers, all the pioneer radio model numbers I had in my car, and I had and asked her if she could do me a favor and get the price down. She lowered it to $500 and I bought them right away with my credit card over the phone. I still have them but as CD came out, I bought a new 92 Corvette that had a my first CD player in it and I stopped using my cassette deck, eventually put the stereo in my closet and it's sat there since oh, I guess around 1992. I missed using that old stereo, missed watching the reels turn, missed the fluoroscan meters bouncing, their blue color, mesmerizing... and now as an adult, I went on Ebay one day and saw all this old stuff and someone on Ebay offering to service the RT-909 and I actually contacted the person years ago and asked why the price was so high. The person said it can take anywhere from at least 30 to 40 hours or more to work on them. It's a lot of work. Tedious work. But after seeing these are being brought back to life, I wanted to get all of this stuff fixed and use it again. I missed that warm Pioneer sound. I started this quest about 10 years ago when I bought an SG-9800 on Ebay for $50 plus $25 shipped, something also I could not afford when I was 16 years old. I knew that later down the road I wanted to invest a lot of money into this stereo to get it all back up and running and now with finding a mint condition CT-F1250 last month, I'm really getting amped (no pun intended) to do this and bring my rack back to life.

But seeing a Pioneer SA-9800 on Ebay that may be a good candidate for a rehab by someone on here or another board if I can find someone to do the work, is not worth it to me if the display is dead and there is currently one on Ebay now that has this same issue. He's asking way too much for it so I'm not interested in it as there are others that have been rehabbed and I have the patience to wait till one comes on that is mint and I'll spend the extra dough to buy it. I prefer the wood cabinet and finding them in mint condition is tough. But I'm going to remove the wood day one, like I did with all my other stuff I purchased in 1980 and put the metal covers I have on it and put it in my rack. The cabinet will go into my basement in the original Pioneer boxes with all the other wood cabinets that have sat there since 1980. One day I may buy duplicate units and use the cabinets to have a matching stereo for the second floor of my home. To sell them would be crazy. They're scratchess in the box for 36 years. Like my tape heads, and motors, they are something that most people don't have. Brand new 1980 Pioneer stuff.

But the thought of finding out what company Pioneer used to produce these fluroscan meters would be great as they may still make them, and still have the specs/templates in a warehouse to make them easily again. Just someone with determination has to call them and ask for someone that has been with the company for 36 years and started out in their parts department! ;)
 
Hey hey hey!!! I just got a message back from one of the companies that make the VFD's! This is what he said! Does anyone know the part numbers of the Fluroscan displays or EAU numbers? Not sure if I hit "THE" company that made them for Pioneer but knowing my luck with getting tape heads and motors 15 years after discontinued... ya never know! I have a way of finding things! This could be the HOLY GRAIL!!!!

"My name is Taichi Hirao and I am a Sales Engineer.
Do you have the part numbers and EAU for each of the displays?"
 
Maybe these companies keep old designs / patterns / tooling around for parts they made in high volume. Maybe they can make more. Hopefully.
 
Can someone measure the physical display area of the VFD?
I had a couple of minutes last night to try to resurrect the VFD on my old VCR. I used a transformer from a model train. Either it does not have enough voltage or I didn't have a good enough connection, but I could not get the filament to glow. The schematic show that it is normally powered by 5 VAC. I'm sorry, but I did not measure the size. I'll try again at a later time.
 
Never know. This guy that contacted me may be with the company that did them for Pioneer. If so, if they have tooling around for parts, maybe they could make more. And if someone were willing to put up the money for a production run, might be interesting for a good investment to get a nice return. Imagine Pioneer Fluroscan repair guys out there that could get their hands on BRAND NEW Fluroscan meters for all top end models including top three amps, RT-909 and top two cassettes.
 
I got to thinking about why my filament would not glow. I think it is because the (VCR's) transformer is still connected. Since I was feeding it DC, it probably sees it almost as a short. Maybe I'll try again this weekend but by disconnecting the transformer or PCB that has the VFD..
 
Guy got back to me and said something about if they did do them and had the stuff needed, they'd need permission from the parent company that did the first order. My thoughts, they should be well over patent expiration. Same for contract negotiation. I would think if one were to find the company that did them and could easily make more, to ask Pioneer, they're going to want a huge cut of that production or royalty. My thoughts then would move to the company that made them, if they can't make more, why not repair all the ones out there then. Repair servicing of old fluroscan.
 
The displays were made by Futaba (as in radio control gear). I've got a non-functioning SA-9800 display (undamaged) here someplace.

My research indicated (pun intended) the barium oxide? on the heaters gradually disintegrates and the entire functionality (like a triode) ceases.

The one I have here was completely dead. A replacement VFD only from a donor SA-9800 solved the problem.

There's surely no patent to worry about- it's just a VFD. You could just send them a dead one to duplicate.
 
This thread just died? It sounded like there was some hope and then proof. Dies anyone have any additional info, a new thread, anything? I'm really hoping that the display in my SX-3900 can be revived.
 
The easiest way to solve this is to find a donor. The next way would be to use a different type of display.

For example this is a 4dsystems display module. They have many different sizes.

You could literally duplicate the display using an LCD panel.

I used one to replace the scope on a Marantz model 18.

 
sx-3900 donors are easier to find, and the display is more robust - chances are it is NOT a failed VFD display, but rather something the VFD needs that is not present. This is what PAST history has taught me. Remember though, (and I do) that history is still being made....
 
Thanks for the info. You guys rock. There is a member pretty close to me that may be able to help but he's already busy with other projects so it may be a while.
 
No other VFD display is like the sa-9800's.

That said, I wonder if the tech that worked on it made sure every voltage was set up correctly for the display to function. It IS complex.

R23 is 330 ohms, 1/4 watt (flameproof) and if it opens up, it shuts down the filament, which completely darkens the display.
Read AC voltage (about 3v AC) BETWEEN AWR-191(or 194) power supply board pins 25 and 27 (NOT to ground, to each other)
pin 26 is to be grounded, which is what the BRIGHT switch does. Test ohms to ground at pin 26, bright = 0 ohms, dim = 470 ohms

Also check for the same AC voltage on the AWV-002 indicator assembly board BETWEEN pins 14 and 15.

As for your sa-7800, I've been away, and could have (and can) shed light on that.

It is possible to fix that problem and keep what you have.


Reading this thread now as I am recapping a 8800 with a VFD that is dim in spots. Looking carefully under well lit magnification, I can see the actual phosphor is a slightly different color in the dimmer areas, and it seems to have a gradient between the lighter and darker areas with some of the segments actually transitioning colors within them. So it's obviously either the phosphor or the phosphor binder is deteriorating or changing in some way, probably due to age, but I can't rule out possible UV penetrating the blue plastic lens somehow, however I suspect that would cause fogging of that lens as well. I don't know the history of this unit as it was literally rescued from a (wet) landfill. It's all working now and the VFD isn't that bad but I got to thinking - nowadays, with the speed of simple MCU prototype boards, and the flood of dot matrix VFDs on eBay, I wonder if something like an Arduino tiny could be used to drive one. The size would seem compatible and because the lens is so dark and the tube set back from the faceplate it would seem almost impossible to discern. This only problem I think would be the latency as most of these VFDs are serial or parallel data transfer to an MCU while the original had drivers with simple comparators and amps directly driving the segments. I see dot matrix VFD spectrum analyzers in cheap kits so unless the dots are directly driven by an ASIC, they must have overcome the data transfer issue somehow. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Also I have 2 schematics. Most of the notation on one has the ICs and the segments being driven at +15.1v, but another has the tube with an 18v notation.
 
This thread just died? It sounded like there was some hope and then proof. Dies anyone have any additional info, a new thread, anything? I'm really hoping that the display in my SX-3900 can be revived.
I am also very interested in this discussion. Unfortunately, embarked on a Pioneer blueline collection. Now realizing the entire collection (6-7 units) on a path to failure/obsolesence. Is it true that a VFD look-alike could be purchased somewhere?
 
Makes you wonder, if someone spent the time to design the replacement, why are they not selling it, especially if there is lots of demand?
 
Back
Top Bottom